I'm hearing "Player Agency" a lot, so lets clarify it....
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I'm all for player agency, it's what makes or breaks a video game. HOWEVER, not all agency is good agency
Good agency is when the player has multiple responses to a problem the game presents to your character, and that you have many different ways to use it (like placing a wall or an orb which affects mob movement). In this way, most of the agency rests in the CHOICE we make in response, and how we carry it out. Bad agency is when the player MUST respond, or is INCENTIVIZED to respond in one specific way when a problem presents itself. Here, most of the agency rests in a button press, not a choice. Bad agency seems to manifest as some action feeling more like a "chore" than a "choice" For example, the new Banners are bad agency (to be fair, they are better agency than the previous banners, but only because it's less clicks (less chore)). I don't have multiple choices to make when a problem presents itself, I just "click button cuz guy didn't die instantly". Blessing was the same way, and it died, which makes sense (but please remember to replace the power you took!). A better example is stance skills. Barely.. better... It would be better if their effects were greater to make my choice more impactful, but at least I have TWO options to choose from. The interaction is more than binary. Just think about it, is there REALLY any agency in the binary interaction of... If X, then Y; where X=Guy didn't die, and Y=I pressed "guy didn't die" button If there aren't multiple responses to some "encounter" then why are you making players push the button? It's a chore, not a choice. Última edição por AbelsGambit#7965 em 24 de jul. de 2024 23:29:34 Último bump em 25 de jul. de 2024 15:59:50
Este post foi automaticamente arquivado. As respostas foram desabilitadas.
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Thanks for your sharing
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Have to disagree but this is a subjective concept to begin with.
A game can be good without player agency and there is no such thing as bad player agency. Only fake ones such as a story choice that doesn't actually change the outcome or to use your example of 'guy die' or 'guy don't die'. These are fake choices. The only real player agency PoE has is in it's build types which have been consistently dwindling ie replay value and activities in which there's obviously bad choices which also limit the concept. Most examples given for this game in your post I'd say are fake or don't even qualify. "Never trust floating women." -Officer Kirac
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Interesting response! Yes it's subjective for sure! Though, if there's zero player agency then I'm not sure it's even a "game"? Much less a video game?
I figure a precondition for any game is agency of a player, no? I'm curious what your definition of a game and agency is then? I'm also wondering if I'm correct about this assumption.. I'd wager your favorite league/s content would be something like ToTA? and Blight perhaps? Última edição por AbelsGambit#7965 em 25 de jul. de 2024 12:57:10
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I agree with xzorn, there is no such thing as "bad player agency" in video games. There is either agency....or there isn't. Your choice matters / isn't binary, or it doesn't. Your actions matter, or they don't.
This can be incredibly tricky to nail down though. A great example of this would be our current defense structure. Do you REALLY have player agency over defensive options? If you look with a bird's eye view? No.....you sort of don't. There are few defensive options, both via items and via mods, that so far outperform all the rest that they represent THE option. Basically any other choice is the wrong choice (if we are talking purely defense). This is intended to mimic player agency, but in function it undermines it. Granted, this view is WAY out from the outside. The nitty gritty on the ground DOES have agency (how much defense to run with, glass cannon?, full tank, etc.), but the actual mechanic does not. They have been doing better with league content, but it wasn't so long ago where your atlas trees.....weren't actually a choice. Either you made the correct choice for that iteration of the game, or you didn't and were stuck with no drops or rewards. The "real" agency in this game is almost exclusively found in character development. Your choice of ascendancy and your choice of skill, and your choice of damage scaling. But once you choose those three things....the game sets you on a pretty linear path where choices are either wrong or right. **I guess you could say making the wrong choice is a kind of agency...** Última edição por jsuslak313#7615 em 25 de jul. de 2024 13:11:05
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I s'pose I just choose to define "agency" more broadly.
Your idea of no agency is my idea of bad agency. I guess I want this distinction because there is ALWAYS the option of no agency, which is to simply never play the game. Never playing and "being forced into specific defensive options" cannot be equivalent, necessitating the distinction. I just don't see a world where you are actually "playing" the game, and there is no agency. So it seems necessary to me to require a gradient of agency rather than a binary. Since the binary form can always be trivialized to play, or don't play, we need more nuance to agency to get over that hump. Anyway semantics aside, I totally agree with you that the defensive "options" in this game are very restrictive. It's a very clear tiered system at the moment, where the best option for virtually all scenarios is far superior to any alternative. Actually to the point where, if you try and make something else work, you're going to suffer, suffer as in, you simply cannot participate in some of the content the game offers, despite WANTING to. This is fine when it's a "skill" check, like a difficult boss requiring fine keyboard and mouse inputs. It's toxic and "bad" when it's restricted by.. "Oh, you didn't take these 4 passives on the skilltree, and you need to have those 4 passives on the skilltree" or "your gear doesn't have X stat, you need X stat" Furthermore, if there are "skillchecks" which can be bypassed by binary interactions like "just have X stat" and those have high variance between builds... well, you end up with a balancing NIGHTMARE, which is where I think we're headed How to get out, would be to ensure other defensive options are about equivalently strong across the board. If you need to nerf some things at the top end, nerf them at the top end, without crushing them on the bottom end |
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Eh...
defensive take "requirements" but only for hardcore. But thats hardcore You can make a silly squish build in SC just fine if you have skill for it. Expression in this game is all over the place, you have a lot of agency for that. Just look to deep delvers if you want proof on that. One of the variances is luckily not damage. We see this in gauntlet races, where you win a race with barely 3-5m damage on ubers. Lots of skill expression available mechanically. They are creating, or trying to create, other defensive options. With the buff to basetypes Ward/ES/Armor. Would need specific case examples, I'm sure there are, but agency in this game is one of its strengths (massive passive tree, massive atlas passive tree). I dont HAVE to play deadeye, I dont HAVE to trait blood magic, I dont HAVE to socket xyz support, I dont HAVE to take endurance charges List is pretty infinite there. Agency around banners is subjective. As it depends what each specific player values. Passive broad and non restrictive play as seen previously. Or active engagement and strategic planning restricted to melee seen now. Mash the clean
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Seems it was unavoidable for this topic to come to this point...
Players fundamentally disagree on what "agency" actually is Some players think clicking a node in a skiltree is agency. That them choosing Bloodmagic over Eldritch battery is agency. That is not agency, or, at least, that's about the lowest possible form of agency that can exist for an agent playing a game You clicked the button once and forever it's that way. I don't want to call it "bad" agency, it's not really agency at all. It's like... yah, technically we're all stardust, but is that really helpful when trying to figure out what you want to eat? No.. So yah, TECHNICALLY clicking one node vs the other in the skilltree one time and never having to make the choice again (or at least for a very long time) is agency, but it's so irrelevant to the whole suite of actions you have to preform while "playing" your character that I don't even waste my time considering it. This is, of course, the difference between gamer archetypes. Some gamers just want the trophy, achievement hunting. Other gamers want to enjoy the ride. and a whole mix of a bit of both. If you want the trophy, the most important things to you are those one-time choices, and the path to getting the trophy is just a chore to you. If you want to enjoy the process of reaching the goal, then the most important things to you are the steps you take along the way. Just completely different reasons to play. I guess it comes down to GGG figuring out if their audience is more achievement hunters or ride enjoyers? I like to think aRPG players are ride enjoyers. I also like to think the whole point of aRPGs is to enjoy the ride. Achievement hunting is for puzzle games, and classic RPGs. I get GGG wants to cater to all gamers to grow their audience but maybe catering to players with completely different ideals kill the whole point of having an aRPG? Idk, just some gaming philosophy feedback I guess? |
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Also try to remember not to use tail-end of the bell curve examples as the normal. Yes, the 10 very best path of exile players on the planet can do amazing things. That's what makes them the best.
If we balanced around them, every boss fight in the game would have one-shotting meteors raining down on you every 5 seconds and Atziri would always come to defend them at 50% HP. Every rare monster in the game would have every archnemesis modifier applied to them and you would be restricted to only a 4 link. Luckily we know better :D |
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" Skill expression and choice is a factor of agency. Theres no real room for interpretation there. Clicking a node on the skill tree is you choosing. Thats the very definition of agency. And you clicked a button and its actually NOT forever that way, there are things called ---> Regret orbs <--- and a lot of variance within a single build. I dont want eldrich battery anymore for SRS, I want my ES. Im unspeccing it now. I need extra passives so I can gain a better passive but it will be awhile until I level up. I need to spec an int/dex/str node because of gem requirements. I have a better shield now, I dont need those block nodes anymore, etc... Again, list is pretty infinite. Dumbing down the passive tree to selecting a node and forgetting it is ignoring ... what actually happens in the game. Selecting passives on your passive tree, even at the highest level, is not this perfect utopia of selecting nodes and forgetting. Progression would be almost non-existent if that were true. Achievement/Challenge hunting is just one way to play, or not play, this game. You have agency over that. Scroll back up and reevaluate thinking in binary. Its never one way or the other. Mash the clean
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