Crit Multiplier + Diamond Flask (still) too powerful

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reimur escreveu:

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Startkabels escreveu:

I hope they are smart enough to realise that flasks don't belong in this game.

this guy. don't be like this guy.

he has no place here

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CanHasPants escreveu:

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lethal_papercut escreveu:

Aww boo hoo you're Death's Harp build might get nerfed so you actually have to think about passives allocation...meanwhile in the rest of the game crit chance nodes aren't totally redundant & if people want high crit the have to actually invest in it.

There is no way Diamonds are going to stay the way they are, GGG aren't that stupid.

Sorry. I hope you know, I really like you, Lethal. But I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. You just said the same thing for the twentieth time. I've been repeating myself too. So let's quit circle jerking the convo and address each other directly: what do you think? Do you think Diamond flasks will still be so op when those flask slots have more competition via other varieties of flasks, some of which may be necessary at some point, much like switching out rings to overcompensate for resistance penalties? Do you think you might consider them abusable because they're currently the only dps flask? Think about the future, and what it may hold, given that we already know more flasks are to come.. do you think diamonds might be at least a little bit limited given that their passives and gear mods are wasted without guaranteed crits, and changing out flasks for something more necessary might mean they lose out on that diversity?

Ok, here is what I believe as succinct as I can possibly be.

In the current game I believe that Diamonds have a place, essentially as a gimmick flask. As far as I can tell the inclusion of Diamond flasks is to be a temporary burst of damage that any build (not including RT) can utilise as a way to increase damage by at least 150% for a maximum of 1.8s. This essentially makes them a get out of jail free card for when you gotta go super saiyan or die where you stand. When the flasks are used in this legitimate manner I believe that they are nothing but a great addition to the game & offer a cool dynamic as a kind of Berserk flask.


To answer your questions more directly;
Do you think you might consider them abusable because they're currently the only dps flask?

No, my opinion on Diamonds has nothing to do with them being the only DPS flask in the game. My main bone of contention with them is the ability to chain them which I feel makes crit chance nodes in the passive tree redundant.

IMO Passive Tree > Flasks


Think about the future, and what it may hold, given that we already know more flasks are to come..Do you think Diamond flasks will still be so op when those flask slots have more competition via other varieties of flasks, some of which may be necessary at some point, much like switching out rings to overcompensate for resistance penalties?

You are assuming that there are going to be more DPS flasks in the game, unless you can quote something I haven't seen then the only thing I have heard about is the quicksilvers. Even an added cast/attack speed flask wouldn't be the universal dps increase to every build like Diamonds are. What else could they add? +100 lightning flask? If we get to that stage then the game will need more than the slight rebalance it does currently.


What you are saying to me in your post is that you realise in the current game Diamonds are abusable & out of balance but there may be a situation further down the line where GGG has implemented other flasks that cause players to become very powerful meaning that they may want to use them instead of Diamonds.

Now I realise that the problem is currently compounded by the lack of relevant content for high level charas but with OB+ there should be a point fairly soon where your chara is challenged late into 70's before you start to faceroll to the point where any more DPS is not any more efficient (that is a terrible state to be in). For me though it is mostly about the skill tree, that should always come before flasks & in the current state of the game crit chance nodes are made redundant by the abuse of Diamonds in late game.

Keep the Diamonds, stop the abuse. Simple.



Edit:Sorry. I hope you know, I really like you, Lethal. But I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

I know I may seem a little abrupt at times but I do not mean for any of my posts to be personal attacks or to belittle other posters. I appreciate everyone who takes the time to post on the forums as I honestly feel it builds a stronger community when people talk even if they don't always happen to agree. I like you too & pretty much all of the regular posters on the forums (save a few fail trolls), we all love the game & even if we don't always see eye to eye with our opinions we can at least all agree that we want the best for POE.

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lethal_papercut escreveu:

Aww boo hoo you're Death's Harp build might get nerfed so you actually have to think about passives allocation...meanwhile in the rest of the game crit chance nodes aren't totally redundant & if people want high crit the have to actually invest in it.

There is no way Diamonds are going to stay the way they are, GGG aren't that stupid.

Hating on someone for notable success is a very poor way to make any logical point, not only that, all it does is make you look like a douche. To be completely frank, I made a harp build in the last 36 hours before the prior wipe, proceeded to do a mirrored map, and about a dozen more, then gave everything away. Yes, it is exceedingly strong, however at the same time, it is also overkill and unnecessary in every sort of way (Also had 31% crit chance too, fyi)

I don't believe I ever disagreed that diamonds are too powerful, however, you simply think that the way to fix it is to limit them for no collective reasoning beyond being against some "Chaining" behavior. While you have a point, my point was, that it would be all around better in every single way, IF GGG fixed it. You're solution has been proposed hundreds (literally, maybe even thousands) of times, my ideas and logic was simply introducing and advocating a lesser known alternative that is simply, all around better.

Just calm down. Really.

Epsi, I guess you didn't read my other posts...I have 3 builds that all use 5Diamonds. A frost caster, a lightning caster & a bow user. I myself have abused the system, the builds are pretty easy to make & to be quite honest take less investment than some of the cookiecutter builds we see day in day out, that is why I realise that Diamonds are off kilter when it comes to the overall balance of the game. I wasn't hating on anyone in particular because if I was then I would also be hating on myself, you are the only one here who has gone to name calling by calling me a douche.

From my experience it isn't the flasks themselves that are OP. When you only have 1 in your bar they serve only as the Berserk Mode flask as I have described before. You can't chain them, you can't use them on every rare mob that comes your way & you have to think much more about their use as flippant use here may mean you can't deal with a rare there.

Now let's have a look at your suggestion...

"I prefer that diamonds add 25% and then double your crit chance. This gives builds that don't invest, 50% crit and those that DID invest in crit, 100% potentially, while at the same time, introducing varying hard and soft caps for crit. "

I could live with this suggestion as I personally always go for crit chance builds anyway. I would still benefit from having 5 flasks & would effectively still have an almost 100% uptime of 100% crit. The problem that this method would create is a situation where Diamonds are only useful for people who already invested in crit chance. If you are melee and have virtually no crit chance & have say 2aps then 50% crit chance may mean you only do 1 crit strike while the flask is up.

The reason I like Diamonds is because unless you spec'd into RT (which is moot) every build in the game can benefit from them. With your method they are really only useful for people who already invested in crit. I am more interested in the former than the latter although I personally could live with your suggestion if it were implemented. I don't know how I could be more objective than that.

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lethal_papercut escreveu:

Epsi, I guess you didn't read my other posts...I have 3 builds that all use 5Diamonds. A frost caster, a lightning caster & a bow user. I myself have abused the system, the builds are pretty easy to make & to be quite honest take less investment than some of the cookiecutter builds we see day in day out, that is why I realise that Diamonds are off kilter when it comes to the overall balance of the game. I wasn't hating on anyone in particular because if I was then I would also be hating on myself, you are the only one here who has gone to name calling by calling me a douche.

From my experience it isn't the flasks themselves that are OP. When you only have 1 in your bar they serve only as the Berserk Mode flask as I have described before. You can't chain them, you can't use them on every rare mob that comes your way & you have to think much more about their use as flippant use here may mean you can't deal with a rare there.

Now let's have a look at your suggestion...

"I prefer that diamonds add 25% and then double your crit chance. This gives builds that don't invest, 50% crit and those that DID invest in crit, 100% potentially, while at the same time, introducing varying hard and soft caps for crit. "

I could live with this suggestion as I personally always go for crit chance builds anyway. I would still benefit from having 5 flasks & would effectively still have an almost 100% uptime of 100% crit. The problem that this method would create is a situation where Diamonds are only useful for people who already invested in crit chance. If you are melee and have virtually no crit chance & have say 2aps then 50% crit chance may mean you only do 1 crit strike while the flask is up.

The reason I like Diamonds is because unless you spec'd into RT (which is moot) every build in the game can benefit from them. With your method they are really only useful for people who already invested in crit. I am more interested in the former than the latter although I personally could live with your suggestion if it were implemented. I don't know how I could be more objective than that.

My issue isn't your objectiveness, it is, rather, you're inability to say anything logical to support your point against any fix that isn't non-intuitive limitation. Yes diamonds are strong, your fix has merit, however, as a forum, we COULD do better then this fix. The fix is not only unimaginative, unintuitive and simply stale game design, it has been presented over the course of the game-life, as I said, hundreds if not thousands of times.

In defense of my idea, I believe that half the issue IS builds who are not meant to be critting, critting, as much as they do. I believe that crit chance nodes are located where they are, for a specific reason. So while yes, my build is more biased towards crit chance builds, it is my opinion that diamond flasks should grant greater benefits to builds with crit chance and crit multi, like the normal game does.

In the end however, I stand by the fact that limiting the flasks, while a valid and viable option, is simply not the best way to go about it, all it does is severely hamper the build viability that has grown due to letting diamonds exist in this OP state, and does not ADD anything. It's an ARPG, who cares if someone has 160k dps with flask, I know for a fact, that my 20k dps archer can and does clear 90% of the content faster and with less risk of dieing then said 160k dps.

Well, I think we will have to just agree to disagree but I have to say I find it strange that you would use "it has been mentioned 000's of times" as a way to counteract an argument.

Offtopic, let me ask you this, should Granites be a x% of you current armor or are they OK being a flat increase?

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lethal_papercut escreveu:

Well, I think we will have to just agree to disagree but I have to say I find it strange that you would use "it has been mentioned 000's of times" as a way to counteract an argument.

Offtopic, let me ask you this, should Granites be a x% of you current armor or are they OK being a flat increase?

I don't use that to counter your arguement, I simply wish to see the idea evolve beyond what it already is. Like I said, it has merit and viability as it is, but it COULD be so much more, if you could find a way to make it so it doesn't completely destroy the builds that have already grown from it's abuse.

As for granites? Personally, I think the entire armor/evasion system needs to be completely revamped. For a passive defense, armor is simply useless alone, and evasion is trash without acrobatics, as compared to what it is with it.

If I had to choose however?

I would agree with a percentile, I don't think that ES users specifically need a flat armor integer to compound with "Of Iron Skin" though I personally think that "Of Iron Skin" shouldn't compound with itself on a granite.

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EpsiIon escreveu:

so it doesn't completely destroy the builds that have already grown from it's abuse.

This is where we differ. I don't believe builds that can be considered 'abusive' should be defended. They have appeared in a beta because the current mechanics allow a situation that can be abused, IMO rather than them being seen as a legitimate build that should be kept, I see them as a learning experience for the overall balance of the game. IMO it is a balance issue to be ironed out in this early stage of the game as history has shown that for the most part players gravitate towards these 'broken' builds as the word spreads.

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lethal_papercut escreveu:

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EpsiIon escreveu:

so it doesn't completely destroy the builds that have already grown from it's abuse.

This is where we differ. I don't believe builds that can be considered 'abusive' should be defended. They have appeared in a beta because the current mechanics allow a situation that can be abused, IMO rather than them being seen as a legitimate build that should be be kept I see them as a learning experience for the overall balance of the game. IMO it is a balance issue to ironed out in this early stage of the game as history has shown that for the most part players gravitate towards these 'broken' builds as the word spreads.

The reason I don't agree with this line of reasoning is simply put, it is unnecessary.

Diamond flasks allow you to reach a level of dps which is simply not necessary, efficient or safe. It's true they are abused and abusable, but the actual damage done to the system and game is rather minor at best. I already only use 1-2 diamonds at the most, more is simply unnecessary, and only truely needed for the new players. Diamonds lessen the learning and gear curve for some players, and I see that only as a good thing.

While I think that the only reason they are seen as the evil that they are, is due to the fact that they don't reward crit chance AND crit multi stacking, which is what should happen with a "crit" flask, and the fact that they are the only dps flask, meaning they will always be the most efficient dps increasing flask, simply by default.

The fact that they are the only dps flask in the end game, simply means, by default, they will always be OP.

Thank you for the reply, lethal ^-^ Rather than adress all the points, I'll just say two things and then go on a little bit of a tangent...

I agree that in the game, as is, they aren't probably working as intended. They make it almost too easy to build great dps which circumvents some of the need for proper itemization. For the most part, I, like Epsi, see this as a good thing. We should have various work arounds to make the game easier for players who choose to play an easier game (aside: so long as that "easy" doesnt lend to abusive farming trends, like the often desired "true teleport" spell people want would do). The problem stems from that they make it a little bit too easy. For now.

This is where we diverge, and just have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, right now (game as is) isn't terribly relevant. I know I'm kind of going out on a limb here, but I have this feeling like we're about to get an explosion of new content in thirteen odd some days (being facetious here), and that content is going to cause some serious questions about running 5 diamond flasks, as that precludes the use of any other flasks. Regardless of what coming weeks may do to the meta, the solution is to make flask slot competition more important. One of the best things about this game is how it forces competition among the use of various limited resources, its brilliant! But at the moment flasks have no real competition.

Tangent to come later, for now I gtg ^-^ (it's about exploring lethal's suggestion further, possibly leading to expanded build varieties)