Keybinding to changes active mouse binding?

"

Lazze escreveu:

I am all for freedom of choice when it comes to customize your Hotkeys.
Im a bit "weird" since I never use wasd , always the arrow buttons and numpad + ins - del section and f5-f12.(so qwert + 1234... is a no go for me if not customizable)
My solution was a programable gaming mouse and even a keyboard lately.
I am very surprised that it does not seem to be many people that uses them?
I could not live without my mouse , in POE I got 6 skills bound to my mouse.Can easilly make macro´s if I wanted too , but no need yet(ofc curses and future buffs will be easier to cast with macro´s)
Anyway , cant be the cost since you can get a good gaming mouse for less than 30 Euro . Using a X7 /oscar mouse editor myself. Highly recommended.
Of cause there are more expensive gaming mouse in the market but very good low price alternative ones have come out last years.
Anyway , a tip for thoose who want complete freedom regardless of wasd/qwert or whatever..
Make sure that the mouse got an onboard memory + comes with a macro software.
Cheers ,
L

+ 1
Logitech Mouse G500 + Keyboard G15

A system that relies on extra buttons is a bad one. Period.
The game must be able to function properly with only two mouse buttons available. Nobody ever needed extra buttons in Diablo 2 -- customizeable keyboard shortcuts for mouse buttons + 2 mouse buttons themselves -- that's it.
That applies to all genres, by the way (except maybe macro-heavy games like WoW).

I prefer the D2 system, but when I think about applying it to PoE, I consider that the skills (currently) are much different and the skill systems will work optimally for different controls.

Because of sockets and support gems, you have much less skills to cast so switching binds isn't as necessary and most of the time it fits into 8 slots.

In Diablo 2, you get a large amount of skills which would require switching what's bound to LMB and RMB, some you cast only once in several minutes. Some builds in Diablo require 10+ skills to be cast.

Though the interfaces and controls are almost the same, the gameplay is much different.

For those saying it's like:
q + mouse targetting + RMB V.S Q + mouse targetting

It can be:
(Previous skill) + Hold mouse + Q + (switch) W + (switch) + E
This works rather well when there's a huge density of monsters (more common in D2 than in PoE).

EDIT: Added an important emphasis to a word that is crucial to what I was trying to say.

"

hydris escreveu:

Some builds in Diablo require 10+ skills to be cast.

Not... many. The vast majority of builds required two skills. Many only one. I really hope we see a move away from that into requiring more skills.

"

DragoonWraith escreveu:

Not... many. The vast majority of builds required two skills. Many only one. I really hope we see a move away from that into requiring more skills.

Oh come on now. All barb, pala and necro builds require 7+ skills at all times. Other classes - not so much, but nec/ba/pal builds alone constitute at least half of all viable builds. It is a real challenge customizing hotkeys when playing something like a curse-casting necro or a party-friendly paladin -- and when you find the convenient layout, it's so much fun being able to use all those skills fast.
Also, let's not forget about well-equipped PvP builds (and some PvM builds) which feature a lot of extra item-granted skills (tele, shouts etc).
And in POE, thanks to the great gem system, the number of actively used skills will definitely mount as new skills and spells will be introduced -- and that requires a better control scheme. Better than in Torchlight which has a pathetic skill system.

"

hydris escreveu:

This works rather well when there's a huge density of monsters (more common in D2 than in PoE).

Errr... PoE act2 has a large enough density of monsters. Overall i find it to be comparable with diablo2 monster density.

The gameplay is just not different enough to warrant some quirky new control scheme. Mouse button-based skill use is perfectly applicable and superior in PoE circumstance.

"

atrokkus escreveu:

Oh come on now. All barb, pala and necro builds require 7+ skills at all times. Other classes - not so much, but nec/ba/pal builds alone constitute at least half of all viable builds. It is a real challenge customizing hotkeys when playing something like a curse-casting necro or a party-friendly paladin -- and when you find the convenient layout, it's so much fun being able to use all those skills fast.
Also, let's not forget about well-equipped PvP builds (and some PvM builds) which feature a lot of extra item-granted skills (tele, shouts etc).
And in POE, thanks to the great gem system, the number of actively used skills will definitely mount as new skills and spells will be introduced -- and that requires a better control scheme. Better than in Torchlight which has a pathetic skill system.

One. Assassin uses by-far the highest number of skills.

Two. Uh, no. Bar/Pal/Nec, really? Necromancer is the only one I'd even kinda-sorta agree with; 'Zon and 'Sin are far more varied in their skill usage most of the time. Seriously, most characters in Diablo II have 2 regularly-used active skills, plus passives, long-term buffs, or summons. A few go higher than that (most Zons will be up to about 5 actively used; most 'Sins will be up to about 9), but for the most part, not so much.


Paladin: Holy Shield + your pick of: Blessed Hammer, Fist of the Heavens, Smite, Vengeance, or Zeal + your pick of: Concentration, Conviction, or Fanaticism (and you don't even really use Auras). Smite is cheap enough to throw on to a Hammerdin or Zealot. Chargers don't use shields and therefore don't use Holy Shield. That's two active (or one for Charge) skills, plus one Aura. Trying to run multiple support Auras and switching between them is dumb and meaningless (Fanaticism or Conviction are almost-certainly the best auras for your group at all times). Salvation might get used against Uber Mephisto.

End result: one long-term buff, one attack skill, one aura, cover 99% of Paladin builds. For what I was talking about (actively-used skills), 1 skill.


Necromancer: Skelemancers use the most skills (ignoring Mojomancers for the moment); the core build relies on 4 (Raise Skeleton, Clay Golem, Amplify Damage, and Corpse Explosion). It's really cheap on skill points, so you can throw on Mages, Revives, or Bone Armor at no real cost to yourself. Decrepify is useful for bosses. But the Skelemancer's large number of skills used is primarily just because they've got plenty of excess points throw around.

Venomancers use Poison Nova and Lower Resist. They don't really have the skill points for much more than that, nor do they have much use for anything else. Corpse Explosion may get used because it's Corpse Explosion.

Boners use Bone Spear and Bone Spirit, and will probably pre-buff with Bone Armor. They'll use Decrepify I guess but no other curse helps them much at all, and even Decrepify is largely wasted on them. Corpse Explosion may get used because it's Corpse Explosion.

Mojomancers are an exception, but a poor example; a Mojomancer is a pure support build that cannot (reasonable) solo the game. Besides, there's still little reason to use anything but Amplify Damage, Lifetap, Decrepify, or Lower Resist. Dim Vision perhaps for an emergency, the AI-messing curses for laughs.

Skelemancers have a core of 4 skills, but may use more because they can. Venomancers use two or three, Boners use two, either may use Bone Armor or Corpse Explosion because they can. Mojomancers are largely a waste of time, but can use a fair few different skills — 90% of the time, they'll be using just one of three or four, though. Most of their game play is just spamming a curse or an attack spell (two for boners), though, so I feel confident in my statement of 1-2 here.


Barbarian: Battle Orders + Battle Command + your choice of: Berserk, Whirlwind, Concentrate, Frenzy, Double Throw, Leap Attack, or Warcry + Berserk (if not already picked). Four skills, but two are long-lasting buffs. I guess Leap or Leap Attack for mobility. You can mess around with Shout or Find Item or whatever, they're not important.

One attack skill, an alternate attack skill (Berserk) for physical immunes, two long-term buffs, and a mobility skill. Average play uses two skills, with two others being used every now and then to re-up the buff, and a fifth in reserve for physical immunes. So again, more-or-less 2 skills here.


You can add Teleport to each of these if you're cheating. And if you don't think trading for a Jah and Ber is cheating, you haven't looked at the drop rates. 99.9% of Jahs and Bers on the Realms are dupes (true of all runes above Gul, actually, since Hellforge caps out at Gul), and if you trade for a duped item, you are cheating, period.


To further this:

Sorceress: Glacial Spike + Blizzard OR Fireball + Frozen Orb OR Lightning + Chain Lightning. Static Field and Teleport for utility. Other builds are certainly possible (I'm a big fan of Charged Bolt and Fire Wall), but 99% of Sorceresses fall into one of those categories. Four skills, on average, but two are primary and two are utility.


Druid: Cyclone Armor + Tornado + Hurricane + Oak Sage is the only actually good Druid build. Shapeshifters have serious problems; Summoners and Fire Shamans have even bigger problems. Still, your average Shapeshifter will only use 3-4 skills. Your average Summoner uses Wolves or Bear, plus a Vine, plus a Spirit, plus Ravens (still 4 skills). I'm not even sure what Fire Shamans try to do; I do know it doesn't work (god that tree is awful). Regardless, looking at about 4 skills, including at least two long term buffs/summons. Again, 2 active skills.


Amazon: Lightning Fury + Charged Strike OR Multishot, Strafe, Guided Arrow (pick at most two) are the main builds. Freezing Arrow + Strafe works pretty well. I'm a personal fan of Psn/Lit Javazons (eliminate Charged Strike, pick up Plague Javelin). Decoy, Valkyrie, and Slow Missiles are all excellent skills that should get used by any Zon, but frequenly aren't. Looking at around 5 skills here. The physical Spear/Jav skills and the fire arrow skills should basically never be used (Jab is meh, Impale is awful, Fend is bugged; Immolation Arrow is just crap).

Two to three attack skills, a long-term summon, and then a couple of utility skills. Better than most.


Assassin: The exception. Every Assassin ever should have and use each of the following: Burst of Speed OR Fade, Mind Blast, Cloak of Shadows, Shadow Master, Dragon Flight, and Death Sentry.

Kicksin will add Dragon Talon and Venom. Trapsin will add Wake of Fire and Lightning Sentry. Dancer will add Dragon Talon, Wake of Fire, and Lightning Sentry. Whirlysin (cubing an Ohm from Guls is far more reasonable than Jah and Ber; I've done this twice) replaces Dragon Talon with Whirlwind. Phoenix Striker adds Phoenix Strike and one or two of Blades of Ice, Fists of Fire, and Claws of Thunder, and possibly a kick of some sort. Tiger Tail will add Tiger Strike and Dragon Tail. Furysin will add Blade Fury, which isn't a bad skill on any 'sin. Blade Shield is useable but not great.

Here, we have six all-but-mandatory skills (and only one is a long-term buff), plus 2-5 different attack skills. The Assassin is far-and-away the class that uses the most active skills.


I really hope to see Path of Exile be more like the Assassin than the Paladin. So far, it seems to be.

Well, the issue had already been noted and hereby again. I guess we can just say that styles differ and hopefully PoE will provide enough flexibility for both.

Jesus Christ, Dragoon...

And probably thought of Median a bit when I was talking about monster density. So I'm sorry I wasn't 100% accurate about keybinds for [popular] D2 builds.

And I look forward to flexibility in controls, though it is a bit of extra effort on the side of developers. It will be appreciated. It's a preference.

Though once there's balanced PVP I wonder if there's going to be a D2 bind system vs PoE bind system PVP to see what works best.

DragoonWraith, so 5 skills is too few for you? I don't know, it depends on the playstyle and character level and gear selection. Even though your examples are all valid, I could still say that barbs, for instance, often benefit from things like Taunt and War Cry. And there are many other examples.
I stand corrected on 'sins of course -- slipped my mind at the moment. Definitely a lot of fun juggling their skills around, great crowd control.

Besides, I don't really think all classes/builds need a lot of active skills to use, it really depends on the nature of the build. Anyways, that's beside the point.

The point of the whole topic is that developers should look at diablo2 control scheme and draw from it. The system as it stands today is perfect for a game like Torchlight, because TL has a really shallow skill system and every build uses like ONE or two skills at most. For a game of PoE's caliber this system is grossly deficient.

"

hydris escreveu:

And probably thought of Median a bit when I was talking about monster density. So I'm sorry I wasn't 100% accurate about keybinds for [popular] D2 builds.

Mods don't count. Especially such imbalanced ones.

"

atrokkus escreveu:

DragoonWraith, so 5 skills is too few for you? I don't know, it depends on the playstyle and character level and gear selection.

Most of the examples had 4 (it was a surprisingly common number, actually), but that number usually included long-term buffs/summons that don't need to be cast in combat (mind, I'd still want a hotkey for them, but the how of it was less important). 2-3 active, used-in-most-combats skills seemed rather common, and yes, that is too low.

Path of Exile seems to have ditched long-term buffs altogether (favoring the passive system, which makes sense), and because curses stack it's viable to use more than one. That greatly improves matters.

"

atrokkus escreveu:

Even though your examples are all valid, I could still say that barbs, for instance, often benefit from things like Taunt and War Cry. And there are many other examples.

A good Barb shouldn't really need either. Shout is for making monsters easier to hit; a Barbarian should rarely, if ever, have such problems. Warcry is a great emergency button, I'll grant you, but it's mana-hungry and most Barbs (who are not dedicated Singers) lack both the Mana and FCR to use it well, plus should have great Life and Life Steal for better survivability while attacking than while 'crying.. I could suppose it being worth a hotkey for emergencies (especially in HC), but I don't see it being used often.

"

atrokkus escreveu:

I stand corrected on 'sins of course -- slipped my mind at the moment. Definitely a lot of fun juggling their skills around, great crowd control.

Tis my favorite class, by far. I definitely support more skills like that — skills that are not your primary schtick, but an important part of your combat routine. Curses fall into this, as would Phase Run if it were a little better (too easy to be interrupted trying to use it, IMO). Aside from that... Cold Snap or Frost Nova for the chill effect, but that gets hard to use if you're not pumping Crit anyway... But we could use more skills like these. The way you'd toss out Cloak of Shadows and Mind Blast to incapacitate and distract a pack before running in with kicks; melee, especially Dex-based melee, needs that so badly it's not funny.

"

atrokkus escreveu:

Besides, I don't really think all classes/builds need a lot of active skills to use, it really depends on the nature of the build. Anyways, that's beside the point.

Ehh... I'm not a fan of characters who can get by spamming one skill. That's mindless. I want a game that challenges me to be good at more than one thing. Someone who puts all his eggs in one basket should, IMO, be utterly shut down (or nearly so) by higher difficulties.

"

atrokkus escreveu:

The point of the whole topic is that developers should look at diablo2 control scheme and draw from it. The system as it stands today is perfect for a game like Torchlight, because TL has a really shallow skill system and every build uses like ONE or two skills at most. For a game of PoE's caliber this system is grossly deficient.

Agreed... though I'm not sure that the mouse-switching vs. hotbar thing is really so grossly deficient. The restrictions on the number of hotkeys (especially when one is Middle Click) is far more significant to my mind...

But I still support the mouse-switching style. Optionally, on a per-button basis, preferably, since there are some skills (self-only buffs, PBAOEs) that I prefer to have this style on.