Why Poe is becoming PAY TO WIN GAME - free discusion

No, but being honest with myself surely do.

there Are pay 2 win elements, it cannot be doubted

deny it, you are false.


nothing more to say of it,
do you like games with a pay2win element in them?
.. i dont,

decent arpg game (better than some) though, game is fatally lacking in some ways, but its "okay"

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Xalthotun escreveu:

I will try to make myself clear. In my opinion extra tabs, currency tabs, and public tabs are HUGE advance in game. This is advance for which we have to pay.

In my opinion many people feel bad about paying for such advance, and because of that they trying to convince themselves, that there is not such thing, as paying for advance in POE. Some of them even says, that extra tabs are gimping players, and making them progressing slower!

It helps them to feel better probably.

Projection, the only way to pretend knowing what other people feels, at least you said "In my opinion", doesn't change the fact that the tone of your post might tell one that you believe in what you said.

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mark1030 escreveu:

Does it help you feel better to say these things are a HUGE advantage in a game where there is no win condition?

POE's temp leagues have plenty of win conditions. For two obvious ones:

There's the race to 100. That's a pretty clear win condition for people who do it. With streamers, faster racing leads to more stream viewers. More viewers leads to more donations. Money is the greatest win condition. It's not like all that Red Bull keeping them awake for 30 hours at a time is going to buy itself.

There's also the race to 40 challenges. That's the official win condition of the new leagues. GGG sends the fastest people to complete the challenges some pretty cool real world stuff. Plus, again, streamers doing this the fastest can lead to them making more money.

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Jayserix escreveu:

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Xalthotun escreveu:

I will try to make myself clear. In my opinion extra tabs, currency tabs, and public tabs are HUGE advance in game. This is advance for which we have to pay.

In my opinion many people feel bad about paying for such advance, and because of that they trying to convince themselves, that there is not such thing, as paying for advance in POE. Some of them even says, that extra tabs are gimping players, and making them progressing slower!

It helps them to feel better probably.

Projection, the only way to pretend knowing what other people feels, at least you said "In my opinion", doesn't change the fact that the tone of your post might tell one that you believe in what you said.

I really do.

I was dragged to POE by statement of GGG, that this game will never be pay to win. I misunderstood this statement - my fault.

For me "never pay to win" means, that in game you can buy only pure cosmetics, and never anything, what affects gameplay.

For GGG "never pay to win" means (according to statements of some forum users), that you can't win in POE, so there is no "pay to win" (but in this matter I'm absolutely agree with Jennik, we have clear win conditions, especially on HC).

I've quickly discovered, that my idealistic understanding of "pay to win" was totally different from GGG, but I was hooked on game already.

It does not mean, that I feel easy paying for such game elements. I prefer just to buy game, even paying same amount of money.

So why I play POE? For me it's one of the best games I've played in last few years, and if I have suffer some painful things (like those above) I will, until it does not hurt to much.
But I don't pretend, that I like pain.

Edit: Hey GGG, fix your damn forum will ya? Not terminating list items will cause them to be shown correctly in preview but eaten by the forum when submitting the post. Fortunately I had copied the text to notepad.

How pay-to-win are stash tabs exactly? Let's see. I currently own 31 tabs. Out of those:

• One is a currency tab. The currency stored there would fill four tabs. A lot of it is in small denominations though (I have almost one tab worth of scrolls) and converted to more valuable currencies it would take less than half a tab.
• Two tabs are dedicated to maps. One is for white maps, the other one for yellow maps (I don't have any red maps yet). I'll never run all of those and could maintain a decent map pool in less than half a tab if I wanted.
• One tab holds cards. A lot of those give items I'm not actually interested in. I don't think I'd need more than a quarter of a tab for the actually interesting cards.
• Six tabs have my collection of skill gems. I don't have any plans of using most of them. The vast majority can be purchased from vendors anyway. Storing only the really valuable and/or interesting gems would take maybe a quarter of a tab.
• Three tabs store six copies of every type of ring, amulet and belt with the best possible implicit rolls, to be used as crafting bases. I could do away with them entirely if I just alched them as I got them. Most of those types are not interesting for my current builds anyway.
• One tab has jewels in it, including almost every rare jewel I've ever found. Most of them have uninteresting stats. Some uniques may be useful for later build changes, so let's allocate a quarter of a tab for them.
• One tab holds three copies of every utility flask and six each of the two best types of life and mana flasks. It's useful to have some flasks to deal with different maps, but not this many. A quarter of a tab can hold more than enough to cover every situation.
• Five tabs are taken by my collection of unique items, some in multiple copies. Most of them are low- or mid-level uniques that might be useful for leveling an alt but not for an endgame build. I can see storing a few actually interesting items for planned alts, but they'll fit in half a tab.
• Two tabs have armour and weapons to be used as crafting bases. As with the rings, amulets and belts, I could just as well alch them as I get them and free the storage.
• One tab stores spare equipment, such as MF gear and different resistance rings. Some spares are useful to have, so let's say half a tab for them.
• One tab holds superior items to be used in the vendor recipes for whetstones / scraps / baubles / prisms. Out of these the quality gems are the only ones of real value and take less than a quarter of a tab.
• One tab has items for other vendor recipes, most notably the chaos and regal recipes. Rings and amulets are the bottleneck, other items can be acquired practically at will. A quarter of a tab will suffice for holding some rare rings, amulets and belts, plus some armor pieces when assembling the recipe.
• Two tabs are set as public for selling items. Most of them sit in the tabs for weeks. More aggressive pricing would help move them faster and reduce the storage requirement. Standard tabs can't be set as public anyway so there's no need to allocate an entire tab for stock.
• Four tabs are generic loot tabs where I dump items while running maps. This is just a convenience and I could just as well sort and sell the loot as I get it.

So there we have it, most of my tabs are taken up by useless hoarding. Summing up the allocations we get 3.5 tabs worth of useful storage. The last half a tab can be used for trading stock or loot space.

TL;DR only pack rats need more than four tabs.

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Jennik escreveu:

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mark1030 escreveu:

Does it help you feel better to say these things are a HUGE advantage in a game where there is no win condition?

POE's temp leagues have plenty of win conditions. For two obvious ones:

There's the race to 100. That's a pretty clear win condition for people who do it. With streamers, faster racing leads to more stream viewers. More viewers leads to more donations. Money is the greatest win condition. It's not like all that Red Bull keeping them awake for 30 hours at a time is going to buy itself.

There's also the race to 40 challenges. That's the official win condition of the new leagues. GGG sends the fastest people to complete the challenges some pretty cool real world stuff. Plus, again, streamers doing this the fastest can lead to them making more money.

I'll concede the streamer thing although I don't think streamer donations outside of the game should be included in the discussion. But what did the people who reached 40 challenges first get? I couldn't find any evidence they got anything other than the challenge totem. Same with the level 100s.

Some shorter races like the 2 week one this month did have prizes. Did stash tabs affect the outcomes there? I don't know. Didn't play it. Seems like spending time trading in a 2 week race might be counterproductive.

I think the public tabs only as premium tabs smells P2W. True, there are alternative ways to get a shop up and running but it takes more time and that time is outside of the game using 3rd party tools. Do I think it's a "HUGE" advantage... no. But I do think it is an advantage and it's definitely entering a blurry area of P2W.

As for the currency tabs, I think it's pretty lame to sell those even though I don't think they're P2W. That should be a basic account feature, not something that people have to pay for. That's a fundamental QoL improvement and as someone who has spent a shitload of money on this game I dislike it immensely. It's nickle and dime bullshit. It feels too much like the greed a lot of the "free" games on the app store exhibit. But it is what it is. I already bought two.

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mark1030 escreveu:

But what did the people who reached 40 challenges first get? I couldn't find any evidence they got anything other than the challenge totem.

I just checked and it looks like they stopped giving out T-shirts to the fastest people to get the challenges right before Perandus league. I guess that's one advantage extra stash tabs no longer give anyone. I thought the t-shirts were a cool bonus for being fast, too. I'd never get one, but it was a neat motivator for the racers.

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mark1030 escreveu:

Seems like spending time trading in a 2 week race might be counterproductive.

2 weeks is forever in a race. Anybody who wants to win will have to trade. A big reason for this is that the best builds for racing usually end up using some number of expensive uniques. It also helps to have tons of chaos lying around to buy and roll maps, chisels, fragments, and so on.

I actually made a thread showing the profits from my sales in that race. I easily made enough to buy whatever uniques I needed if I wasn't playing self found. It took very little time to price and sell everything, but there's no way I could have done it all on the basic four stash tabs.

Completely unrelated, but I ended up dying to a powerful crits devourer at 99% xp in that race. If I'd stayed alive for literally one more minute, I'd have hit 91 and ended the race in a tie for 25th place. Stupid devourer stole my demi.

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Jennik escreveu:

Stupid devourer stole my demi.

Sure it did