Portal and Identify Scrolls - Do we really need them?

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RodHull escreveu:

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Rahabs escreveu:

I really hate the D3 system.

Why would you hate a system that removes a needless outdated concept??

Begging the question fallacy alert.

The system is sound, assuming the system is implemented well.. it's only seen to be implemented poorly because scrolls are so common and there is no appropriate sink for them. If they weren't common and you had to use unidentified items with unknown effects (such as might happen in DnD) then ID scrolls would be an integral part of the game.

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zeto escreveu:

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RodHull escreveu:

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Rahabs escreveu:

I really hate the D3 system.

Why would you hate a system that removes a needless outdated concept??

Begging the question fallacy alert.

The system is sound, assuming the system is implemented well.. it's only seen to be implemented poorly because scrolls are so common and there is no appropriate sink for them. If they weren't common and you had to use unidentified items with unknown effects (such as might happen in DnD) then ID scrolls would be an integral part of the game.

No no, thats not it. In D1 they implemented a system thats clearly inspired by old skool pen and paper ADnD. Where items could have detrimental effects and identifying them was required. D1 had cursed items so ID scrolls were required, it also allowed you to use unidentified items.

D2 removed cursed items and with that ID scrolls should have gone as well. If blues were rare then ID scrolls might still have a purpose but they aren't they are two a penny and the idea that people will not ID an item they might want is ridiculous. Ergo people end up IDing everything except items they clearly know they will never use (like 2Handers on a caster for instance) At which stage it begs the question why bother with them?

They arent a luxury or a choice they are a necessity. So just remove them and have all items ID automatically. What does the game lose except the odd little ritual of clicking a scroll to see what an item has on it. Which seems a strange reason to hang onto such an outmoded mechanic thats a hangover from a system that has long since been removed.

The only reason to keep ID scrolls that isn't purely based on preferences, is that you can trade unidentified items for *potentially* higher values than you could if the item was identified - among the player base that will participate in those kinds of trades.

You can still have that in a game without scrolls, just have the items become identified when you click on them.

All that the scrolls do currently, is prohibit low level players from being able to identify gear - and even then it fails to do this for long unless the player wants to identify every blue that drops.

There may be reasons to keep them purely based on an aesthetic feel that the game is striving for, but I cannot think of a solid reason apart from that to keep them in the game.

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I would suggest that in order to "fix" the ID scroll "issue" there needs to be a substantial trade off through vendoring items as identified or unidentified. Personally I think the recipe system prohibits a lot of options that could make the game much more enjoyable, but I do not believe that the system will be removed, so with that in mind...

(a)I would like to see many more recipes that require unidentified rare items.

(b)I would like to see a system in which when identifying gear, the amount of scrolls spent in the identification of the item impacts the quality of the mods on that item. In this way scrolls suddenly become much more valuable. The number of scrolls needed to have a significant impact on the quality of the mods on the item would need to be quite high (if the current drop rates remain the same), but nonetheless it would make them a worthwhile commodity in the game, and it would be in line with the rest of the slot-machine world that GGG has developed.

The juxtaposition between (a) and (b) would be quite nice. You know that if you keep the items unidentified you can save them for a great recipe trade, and you know that if you expend a large number of ID scrolls to identify the item you stand a better chance of hitting high % mods. Forces the player to make a tough choice.

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Wittgenstein escreveu:

I would suggest that in order to "fix" the ID scroll "issue" there needs to be a substantial trade off through vendoring items as identified or unidentified. Personally I think the recipe system prohibits a lot of options that could make the game much more enjoyable, but I do not believe that the system will be removed, so with that in mind...

(a)I would like to see many more recipes that require unidentified rare items.

(b)I would like to see a system in which when identifying gear, the amount of scrolls spent in the identification of the item impacts the quality of the mods on that item. In this way scrolls suddenly become much more valuable. The number of scrolls needed to have a significant impact on the quality of the mods on the item would need to be quite high (if the current drop rates remain the same), but nonetheless it would make them a worthwhile commodity in the game, and it would be in line with the rest of the slot-machine world that GGG has developed.

The juxtaposition between (a) and (b) would be quite nice. You know that if you keep the items unidentified you can save them for a great recipe trade, and you know that if you expend a large number of ID scrolls to identify the item you stand a better chance of hitting high % mods. Forces the player to make a tough choice.

Some really good ideas there. Im fine with ID scrolls if they have a purpose, like you suggested for example. That way theres a reason for them, but as it is they are just a hangover from every other ARPG thats just blindly added to games cause 'thats how its always been'

They should either be removed or given more purpose/value.

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Rahabs escreveu:

I really hate the D3 system. The channel on town portal is fine, keeps people from cheesing so easily, but ID’ing yellows vs anything else is pointless. You either have things to ID or you don’t.

Highlighted the important part for the poster that's confused. D3’s system is stupid because blues whites don’t need to be ID’d, but yellows do? Why have it at all if it’s needed on maybe 10% of the drops? This as I said earlier, is why D3’s ID’ing method shouldn’t be held up as a good example of what POE should use.

In POE ID scrolls don’t just ID drops, they’re the penny of the economy. They let us buy base items from the vendors, which help a lot early on, as well as give us an easy way to start the crafting process late game. At the same time, their practical use keeps them relevant to all players. I’m sure there are tweaks that will make the system work better, but removing them completely isn’t one of them.

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Rahabs escreveu:

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Rahabs escreveu:

I really hate the D3 system. The channel on town portal is fine, keeps people from cheesing so easily, but ID’ing yellows vs anything else is pointless. You either have things to ID or you don’t.

Highlighted the important part for the poster that's confused. D3’s system is stupid because blues whites don’t need to be ID’d, but yellows do? Why have it at all if it’s needed on maybe 10% of the drops? This as I said earlier, is why D3’s ID’ing method shouldn’t be held up as a good example of what POE should use.

In POE ID scrolls don’t just ID drops, they’re the penny of the economy. They let us buy base items from the vendors, which help a lot early on, as well as give us an easy way to start the crafting process late game. At the same time, their practical use keeps them relevant to all players. I’m sure there are tweaks that will make the system work better, but removing them completely isn’t one of them.

They kept ID on rares (which doesnt require scrolls just a right click) cause players said they missed the excitement of finding unidentified rares. That was it... I cant see how in practical terms this makes a bad system? Its still more fluid and less cumbersome than a system with scrolls. What your doing is basically churlishly discounting a good system cause of some peculiar nod to realism (why ID some items) well cause people wanted it that way basically. If they had ID scrolls for rares that would be bad, but they dont, its just there (right clicking) to add to the feel of the game, it doesnt affect gameplay like scrolls do (taking up space, having to horde them etc)

As for the idea they are base items, well remove them and make portal scrolls the base, or trans orbs the base. Thats a poor argument to keep them.

There should be an added feature in the game where you get to trade all your not-so-hardly-earned Scrolls of Wisdom. Like 100 stacks gets you a Kiwi or a random rare item or 10 respec points. Right now I have 10 stacks of those scrolls and they are still growing in numbers.

I'm going to claim a win here and say that Witt's ideas and my previous ideas are the solution.

The problem is not ID scrolls... the problem is that there is no worthwhile use for ID scrolls, and there is no opportunity cost alternatives.

I foresee this changing if people desire it enough... because logically it only makes sense to change it, as the current system is bad.

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zeto escreveu:

I'm going to claim a win here and say that Witt's ideas and my previous ideas are the solution.

The problem is not ID scrolls... the problem is that there is no worthwhile use for ID scrolls, and there is no opportunity cost alternatives.

I foresee this changing if people desire it enough... because logically it only makes sense to change it, as the current system is bad.

Basically add ID scroll sinks... which kinda proves the point made in another thread that a goldless system does not prevent base currency becoming worthless, as ID scrolls are in essence base currency atm.

Identifying items is akin to unwrapping a present. When you find cool shiny rare item, identifying it is a thrill of sorts. Imho, that is really the only reason to keep unidentified items in these games at all.