How do YOU define "pay to win"?

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Lagruell escreveu:

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Porkeh escreveu:

Buying full respecs is equivalent to buying in-game currency, which I consider pay to win.

The EXP boost is a little more tricky. In LoL, getting to level 30 is fairly easily achievable, even without boosts. But in PoE, getting to higher levels aren't supposed to be easily achievable, getting to high levels is supposed to be an accomplishment. Maybe you can argue a case for having boosts up to a certain level, like ~60, which is not too difficult to get to, it would merely just save you some time grinding lower difficulties.
It might not be obviously pay to win, but I think boosts are not a good idea for this game.

Or you could just not worry about were to draw the line at all...

I mean: GGG say PoE will never be "pay to win", we'd better trust they are not going to make any compromise.

I'm pretty confident they will stick to their standards, I wouldn't be here if not ;)


EDIT: @exploder: Better make no compromise, really...

but the point is, what ARE their standards. As you can clearly see from this thread, there are very different opinions what what constitutes P2W.
Do YOU know if the GGG definition of it goes hand in hand with your own? Also, if this isnt looked into, how will GGG know if their perception of P2W matches what their potential customers are expecting?

@Andrew0988: Tapping your point in BOLD doesn't make it any more valid.

Also...

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Andrew0988 escreveu:

Anyone who is trying to explain stash tabs or legacy/non race XP boosts as pay to win, needs to go play a Perfect World game and see where it costs 2,000+ dollars for one best item. They seriously need to take a step back and go run in a rainbow valley because you're just a crybaby hippie.

...this kind of comments doesn't help much convincing any reader that you are right.

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CiceroSUN escreveu:

but the point is, what ARE their standards. As you can clearly see from this thread, there are very different opinions what what constitutes P2W.
Do YOU know if the GGG definition of it goes hand in hand with your own? Also, if this isnt looked into, how will GGG know if their perception of P2W matches what their potential customers are expecting?

Again:

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We're a small independent team of hardcore gamers based in New Zealand and have created Path of Exile as the game that we'd want to play ourselves. It is designed around a strong barter-based online item economy, deep character customisation, competitive PvP and ladder races. The game is completely free and will never be "pay to win".

I might be reading it wrong... if not it means they want their game hardcore and not pay to win.

I understand: Extremely hard, unforgiving, and with no way to ease your journey through it.

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Lagruell escreveu:

Again:

"

We're a small independent team of hardcore gamers based in New Zealand and have created Path of Exile as the game that we'd want to play ourselves. It is designed around a strong barter-based online item economy, deep character customisation, competitive PvP and ladder races. The game is completely free and will never be "pay to win".

I might be reading it wrong... if not it means they want their game hardcore and not pay to win.

I understand: Extremely hard, unforgiving, and with no way to ease your journey through it.

Ok, I dont know how to put it in any other way than what I already did. :) But I'll try.

Your quoted text says the game will never be "pay to win".
It does not explain what GGG thinks constitutes "play to win".
As has become pretty clear from this thread, there is no CLEAR definition amongst players of what defines "pay to win", hence your quote doesnt make us any wiser, unless GGG has posted elsewhere what THEY define as play to win.

Just as an example, there are plenty of people in this thread who feel that extra stash tabs equals pay to win, but since they are already in the game, and GGG has said they will not make it "pay to win", they must not feel that this is "pay to win".

Aren't you the least curious about what GGG defines as P2W?

Just because you don't like my comments doesn't mean its not true.

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Small independent companies like to make money too. Pretty sure they deserve some items in the item shop to drive sales, I dont think stash tabs are exactly going to be the "PEAK" of temptation.

If you think things as simple as an XP boost (for non race ladders) or Stash Tabs is OP or Pay 2 Win. You seriously aren't doing the company any service, as they still need to make money.

I just think people need to be realistic, and thankful that the company isnt going to let things get out of control like +attribute items and special skill gems. Which a ton of other companies would do.

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exploder escreveu:

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SL4Y3R escreveu:

So, you wish to have the same rewards as someone who puts more time into the game?

P2W

First of all... it have to be a quatification of who much you will leave persons to buy... because its not the same that the game allows you to buy... i dont know, for example, a pack of 7 days exp x4... this is insane because you can play all the long 7 days a weak with this exp x4 and yes that is P2W, but lets say that ppl who have 2 hours a day to play, in all weak they play 10 hours monday to friday and lest say 5 hours saturday and 5 hours sunday? ok, lets put some inteligent and anti P2W system here...

Lets say that you only can buy x2 EXP booster for 2 hours a day, so you only can use x2 per 2hours a day thats is nothing for that kid who plays 10 hours a day is like... ok i play 8 hours x1 2 hours x2 and its the same that play 12 hours x1 but in total i play 10 hours is an small diference, but for that ppl who only can play 2 hours a day is like play 4 hours but indeed they are behind those ppl that only have to play 4 hours to do the same.

So that is not fair? 2 hours a day x2 exp boost? you eat a boost it get actived for 2 hours and you cant eat another for 24 hours thats not a imbalanced system :P

Regards!

The need for exp boosters assumes that the gameplay is either pointless before a certain level or just unenjoyable. For anyone that would argue "I just don't have time to play - let me buy my way through!" I would seriously question why you're bothering to play at all. Playing the game is supposed to be the fun part...

Aixius, thats 50% alright, i mean all the way from 1 to max lvl have to be fun or the game is not good enough or you're simply not enjoyning the mechanics BUT, there is 2 points that you have to consider.

1.- Almost for me end-game plus PvP is the best part of any game, i want to be able to play the PvP and probe myself and probe everybody that i almost can give a good fight and get fun from this, and i want to play one step forward every day or every weak but not every month, I leave L2 because i get a job, because i get boring by being onehited by anybody even if i play better in PvP, in that case i just lose for lack of time.

2.- Play with friends, for me is the most important point, in L2 if i wanna introduce a friend to the game i have to wait months to have the chance of HELP him in his leveling and more time to get the gear to be with me... a lot of things, in this game lets say that i have a friend, my friend doesn't work, he play every day 5-6 hours a day, he can play with me when i have the time but if he play he get to higher lvls faster than me so i can party with him, so is an imbalanced point where i cant play with my friend.

Regards i go off work to play a little PoE in home :)

I think a lot of the disagreement as to what is P2W is that nobody knows, or agrees, as to what constitutes "winning" in PoE. There's no use in calling what is and what isn't P2W if no one even knows what it takes to win to begin with.

With that said, the only winning in PoE I think the majority can agree on are both PvP and races. Not everybody cares to get to level 100 first and most people play just to enjoy the game for what it is. The distinction is for those who choose to partake in PvP or races. In those cases the condition of victory is much more clear-cut.

When there are clear-cut winning conditions then you can determine whether a particular option is P2W.

The way I see it, extra stash tabs are nothing more than a convenience to enjoying the game and getting around PoE's half-assed inventory system. Although to that end, it is bullshit that they're charging for extra inventory in and of itself.

Now with that aside. You all have to remember that time is money. As much as some people can't afford the money to buy shop items, some people can't afford the time to grind all the way to the fun part of the game. This game especially, like an MMO, rewards players for their time and not for their skill. Only the players who dump loads of their time into the game will have the best gear for PvP because the drop rates are so low (and don't try telling me otherwise). Those players will also be the ones with the uniques that allow for the cool and interesting builds. So in essence, this game really is P2W, with the payment being a large opportunity cost.

Don't get me wrong. All games require time to be put into them. But most games usually have a strong proportional relationship between time spent and skill developed. This game has a near nil relationship. At some point the time you spend is not going to make you play the game any better. And this point is very early on in this game, and in this genre for that matter. Hence, the game rewards the player who spends more time and not the player who is more skilled.

That leaves the races as the only viable skill-based portion of the game (unless they put gear restrictions on PvP). Everything else is just fluff.

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Andrew0988 escreveu:

[huge bold wall of text]

Bold only works if you use it to highlight a key point within a body of text. If it's all bold, nothing is highlighted.

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CiceroSUN escreveu:

but the point is, what ARE their standards. As you can clearly see from this thread, there are very different opinions what what constitutes P2W.
Do YOU know if the GGG definition of it goes hand in hand with your own? Also, if this isnt looked into, how will GGG know if their perception of P2W matches what their potential customers are expecting?

Most sensible post I've read here, with the exception of Charan's not getting too involved.

;)

I would be very keen to see a set of rules by GGG on what they feel is fair game for micro transactions. Not absolute set in stone rules, but tentative and fairly firm. At some point it may become necessary to compromise to ensure profitability, though I hope not.

If it happens I think it's important to open the discussion early. Leaving it too late could mean loosing the opportunity to hook players that find GGG's current stance too harsh while simultaneously losing core players that thrive in the current environment.

If compromise is ever necessary, establishing a culture of discussion and consultation with the player base is important. I don't want them to buckle to majority demand - it's important GGG always pursue their own vision of a great game - but I do want them to succeed and prove the financial viability of ethical micro transactions.

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CiceroSUN escreveu:

Ok, I dont know how to put it in any other way than what I already did. :) But I'll try.

Your quoted text says the game will never be "pay to win".
It does not explain what GGG thinks constitutes "play to win".
As has become pretty clear from this thread, there is no CLEAR definition amongst players of what defines "pay to win", hence your quote doesnt make us any wiser, unless GGG has posted elsewhere what THEY define as play to win.

Just as an example, there are plenty of people in this thread who feel that extra stash tabs equals pay to win, but since they are already in the game, and GGG has said they will not make it "pay to win", they must not feel that this is "pay to win".

Aren't you the least curious about what GGG defines as P2W?

People thinking buying stash tabs is pay to win... are wrong in my opinion.

Why? Simply because getting mules accounts is free and gives you access to additional stash tabs.


For me and, it is my understanding, for GGG: being able to purchase anything that gives you an advantage in a game makes it pay to win.


By anything, I mean anything...


Anything that makes you stronger, that makes you progress faster, that makes up for your mistakes, anything.