GGGs reasoning on not making a SFL?

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TheAnuhart escreveu:

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SaiyanZ escreveu:

No, if a player trades then they are not playing SF. There is no such thing as true SF or not. It is black or white, no in-between.

SF self imposed rule is easy to follow by a player.
HC self imposed rule is almost impossible to follow by a player. Who is going to delete their items and characters permanently in a game about finding items? Nobody would do this and HC would not exist.

Self imposed rule = self imposed rule.

Sorry, I can't see your point, at all.

Regardless, this debate is stupid. Because "you can play SF currently" is stupid.
It's a debate based on a statement which is flawed to begin with.

Now if there were adjustments, changes made to the current leagues which actually meant one could play SF in the current leagues. To and through end game, engage in crafting and not resort to farming easy but available content to attempt access to more difficult content. Changes that would also improve the game for non-self found players, too. Changes that would save this game from an inevitable demise. Changes that would increase player base, retention and longevity; then we could indeed say "you can play SF in current leagues".

The debate that you can play HC in SC would still exist, the comparisons would still exist, but at least the statement it was born from would be true.

 Unfortunately, you can't use logic to persuade GGG to make a new Self-Found League. GGG seams to be completely happy ignoring the million+ arpg players that would come here to play (or return having already quit) just because "it is not the way we like to play an arpg". So no amount of talk of a larger player base = more microtransactions is going to move GGG to make an SFL. They want to be a niche arpg for hardcore only and they will take that path all the way to the end even if that means they are out of business next year as a result of their narrow focus. Some call it being true to their inner arpg gaming core belief and others would call it foolish to ignore a huge revenue stream of self found solo players. But what the hey, it's their product and they can take it in whatever direction they desire, even if that means GGG doesn't open up PoE to a large arpg audience. Only Chris and company can can decide if "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and make a SFL.

  I have to disagree with the hardcore crowd making statements such as "you can play SF in any league now" or "SF would be too easy and I'd get run out of things to do and get bored and quit." The whole point of trying to get GGG to see the light and create an SFL is to add more playing options and not pigeon hole everyone into only 2 styles of play. That's like saying to everyone "we only have vanilla and chocolate ice cream. Take it or leave it." Obviously with the current downward trend on the daily players stats a lot of once PoE loving players have decided to leave it. This path was traveled on in 2012 by Blizzard and for GGG to go down it does not bode well for the future of PoE.  :(

I sure hope I'm wrong. Only time will tell.

''Unfortunately, you can't use logic to persuade GGG to make a new Self-Found League. GGG seams to be completely happy ignoring the million+ arpg players that would come here to play (or return having already quit) just because "it is not the way we like to play an arpg". So no amount of talk of a larger player base = more microtransactions is going to move GGG to make an SFL. They want to be a niche arpg for hardcore only and they will take that path all the way to the end even if that means they are out of business next year as a result of their narrow focus. Some call it being true to their inner arpg gaming core belief and others would call it foolish to ignore a huge revenue stream of self found solo players. But what the hey, it's their product and they can take it in whatever direction they desire, even if that means GGG doesn't open up PoE to a large arpg audience. Only Chris and company can can decide if "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and make a SFL.

  I have to disagree with the hardcore crowd making statements such as "you can play SF in any league now" or "SF would be too easy and I'd get run out of things to do and get bored and quit." The whole point of trying to get GGG to see the light and create an SFL is to add more playing options and not pigeon hole everyone into only 2 styles of play. That's like saying to everyone "we only have vanilla and chocolate ice cream. Take it or leave it." Obviously with the current downward trend on the daily players stats a lot of once PoE loving players have thrown in the towel and quit. This path was traveled on in 2012 by Blizzard and for GGG to go down it does not bode well for the future of PoE.  :(

I sure hope I'm wrong. Only time will tell.[/quote]

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Perhaps they could implement more micro-transactions that are exclusive to the SFL. Also they could add achievements such as ''I did it myself'' instead of 75% of the top players paying to win for a change.

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xxSerpentlordxx escreveu:

Perhaps they could implement more micro-transactions that are exclusive to the SFL. Also they could add achievements such as ''I did it myself'' instead of 75% of the top players paying to win for a change.

Charge me a 25 to 50 dollar access fee - I don't care. Pretty sure others would be happy to pay for SFL.

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Arrowneous escreveu:

 Unfortunately, you can't use logic to persuade GGG to make a new Self-Found League. GGG seams to be completely happy ignoring the million+ arpg players that would come here to play (or return having already quit) just because "it is not the way we like to play an arpg". So no amount of talk of a larger player base = more microtransactions is going to move GGG to make an SFL. They want to be a niche arpg for hardcore only and they will take that path all the way to the end even if that means they are out of business next year as a result of their narrow focus. Some call it being true to their inner arpg gaming core belief and others would call it foolish to ignore a huge revenue stream of self found solo players. But what the hey, it's their product and they can take it in whatever direction they desire, even if that means GGG doesn't open up PoE to a large arpg audience. Only Chris and company can can decide if "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and make a SFL.

The only part of this argument I disagree with is referring to yourselves as "self-found solo players." By your own admission, a lot of this crowd has quit and doesn't play anymore. As someone who actually plays the game, mostly sells items in trade, rarely ever buys, and usually only spends about 10 Chaos on items to get a character to endgame maps, I feel I have more of a right to the solo self-found title than they do. After all, I play solo, and I farm loot. They don't, because they don't play.

I really wish the SFL movement as a whole would grow some balls, take some pride in their true identity, and simply admit that they are challenge-averse, softcore, casual. Because they are. You can play solo self-found in the game as it is. It is definitely not impossible. It is, however, difficult. As a movement, you're not rebelling against an impossibility, you're rebelling against difficulty.

And you greatly exaggerate the benefits of trade — it's a benefit, sure, but it's not some magic cure-all which makes everything infinitely easy. If trading was really that easy, really that productive, you guys would be doing it yourselves. The reason you don't, the reason you're able to hate it and not forced to love it, is that it's really not all that its cracked up to be.

If one is honest and simply calls SFL supporters what they are — casual-gamer advocates (which, by the way, isn't the same as casual gamers; you can be a casual-gamer advocate and still be a hardcore player) — then, actually, the entire rest of your argument holds up. If GGG caters exclusively to the "hardcore" crowd and mentality, and completely ignores the casual crowd and mentality, then yes, there are potential consequences to that choice. On of the possible (but, in my opinion, otherwise avoidable) consequences is game death due to a constantly shrinking playerbase. It's a real problem, and I don't think you're wrong in the slightest to bring it up.

I'm not the sort to crusade against "dumbing it down for the filthy casuals," because I believe such a phrase is wrong on two counts: first, it's not necessarily dumbing down to find ways to appeal to them (and, in fact, the best designs to appeal to that playerbase are not dumbed-down at all, but instead very sophisticated); second, casuals aren't filthy, they're just a demographic with different tastes than the more hardcore players. I'm not against casuals trying to stand up for what they believe in and advocating changes which would make that demographic enjoy the game more thoroughly.

I am, however, against dumbing down. Which is why I don't want to see a SFL; I believe it's a crude solution when a more sophisticated, global solution would be more appropriate. Not that I think self-found is particularly broken from my perspective; from my perspective, it isn't. This doesn't mean my perspective is the only one which matters.

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Isbox1 escreveu:

zero logical arguments that support not having a SFL.

The player-base is already fractured into 4 leagues -- 2 of those leagues are scarcely populated. Further dividing the player-base into a minimum of 2 addition leagues would be detrimental to the overall health of the game. (HC SF, SC SF -- yes, if you made one but not the other people would still whine just as much. I wouldn't be surprised if people wanted SF versions of the 2 4-month leagues on top of that).

To do that, just so people can have the functionality of playing on an island, WHICH THEY CAN ALREADY DO IN ANY LEAGUE, is absolutely unnecessary.

Just because you choose to ignore the logical arguments not in favor of a SFL doesn't mean there aren't any.


If you want to play self found, play self found. There is literally nothing stopping you.

People try to make the argument that you could play HC on a standard league, and just delete your character when you die -- but playing HC also means playing within a HC economy. Where non-BIS drops that you find are worth a lot more. With a self found league, there is no secondary component, economic or otherwise. It's a play style that is isolated and not dependent on any other part of the game or league.

There is not and will never be a self-found league, because the developers are not short-sighted children, unlike those of you that keep whining for this useless and detrimental addition to the game. Get over it.

@ pearodsp.
Can you stop trolling already?is beyond annoying.

@arrowneus.you too.you at least try to explain why you feel sfl is the only way.

If we take the forums seriously then the game died in cb.Which is not true as you can see.

Now,sfl does exist.Game can be completed in blue gear.What your illussion of an sfl,is the huge amount of things dropping.Even then you will cry that most uniques e.g are crap.

Do you play races?When you play in leagues,do you have the trade window open?if yes,then why all this hypocritic behaviour that sfl would 'fix' the problems game currently has,when its apparent the problem is you

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ScrotieMcB escreveu:

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Arrowneous escreveu:

 Unfortunately, you can't use logic to persuade GGG to make a new Self-Found League. GGG seams to be completely happy ignoring the million+ arpg players that would come here to play (or return having already quit) just because "it is not the way we like to play an arpg". So no amount of talk of a larger player base = more microtransactions is going to move GGG to make an SFL. They want to be a niche arpg for hardcore only and they will take that path all the way to the end even if that means they are out of business next year as a result of their narrow focus. Some call it being true to their inner arpg gaming core belief and others would call it foolish to ignore a huge revenue stream of self found solo players. But what the hey, it's their product and they can take it in whatever direction they desire, even if that means GGG doesn't open up PoE to a large arpg audience. Only Chris and company can can decide if "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and make a SFL.

The only part of this argument I disagree with is referring to yourselves as "self-found solo players." By your own admission, a lot of this crowd has quit and doesn't play anymore. As someone who actually plays the game, mostly sells items in trade, rarely ever buys, and usually only spends about 10 Chaos on items to get a character to endgame maps, I feel I have more of a right to the solo self-found title than they do. After all, I play solo, and I farm loot. They don't, because they don't play.

I really wish the SFL movement as a whole would grow some balls, take some pride in their true identity, and simply admit that they are challenge-averse, softcore, casual. Because they are. You can play solo self-found in the game as it is. It is definitely not impossible. It is, however, difficult. As a movement, you're not rebelling against an impossibility, you're rebelling against difficulty.

And you greatly exaggerate the benefits of trade —

Stopped reading right here. You lost all credibility. To even suggest that trading isn't really beneficial in this game is just... wow. Just wow.

Anyways - the rest of your post is completely off and I can boil it down for you: "I don't want you to enjoy yourself in this game."

Just come on out and admit it Scrotie. You don't want to see other players enjoying themselves playing the game the way they would like to enjoy playing it. Not a single thing you said held any type of value at all... nothing logical. Just emotion.

Again: come on out - man up - and just admit that you simply just don't want other people enjoying themselves.

Misery loves company.

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Isbox1 escreveu:

Just come on out and admit it Scrotie. You don't want to see other players enjoying themselves playing the game the way they would like to enjoy playing it.

It's not so much me not wanting you to enjoy the game, as much as it is a firm conviction that what you are asking for will not bring that enjoyment. You are patients, not doctors; your opinion on symptoms is valid, but your opinion on how to treat those symptoms is not.

That said, I do enjoy the game as it is. Desync bothers me more than everything else combined.

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ScrotieMcB escreveu:

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Isbox1 escreveu:

Just come on out and admit it Scrotie. You don't want to see other players enjoying themselves playing the game the way they would like to enjoy playing it.

It's not so much me not wanting you to enjoy the game, as much as it is a firm conviction that what you are asking for will not bring that enjoyment. You are patients, not doctors; your opinion on symptoms is valid, but your opinion on how to treat those symptoms is not.

And who made you the doctor if I may ask?

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ScrotieMcB escreveu:

As someone who actually plays the game, mostly sells items in trade, rarely ever buys, and usually only spends about 10 Chaos on items to get a character to endgame maps, I feel I have more of a right to the solo self-found title than they do. After all, I play solo, and I farm loot. They don't, because they don't play.

Wow, so you rarely buy items, such self found.

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ScrotieMcB escreveu:

I really wish the SFL movement as a whole would grow some balls, take some pride in their true identity, and simply admit that they are challenge-averse, softcore, casual. Because they are. You can play solo self-found in the game as it is. It is definitely not impossible. It is, however, difficult. As a movement, you're not rebelling against an impossibility, you're rebelling against difficulty.

As a SFL movement supporter, and also as a player reached and played the end-game to an extent on an hardcore league as a self-found player, I find your statement stupid. And what you do is a cheap way to build up an argument.