Favorite/most memorable villain?

Gandhi in the Civ series

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Anonymous1749704 escreveu:

If you've only watched the Wanpanman anime, you shouldn't be commenting about the series in the first place.

I don't like your elitist "if you haven't read the graphic novel you don't know what you're talking about" attitude, but for clarification: I was indeed writing about the anime, and my analysis does not necessarily pertain to 1PM in other media.

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ScrotieMcB escreveu:

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Anonymous1749704 escreveu:

If you've only watched the Wanpanman anime, you shouldn't be commenting about the series in the first place.

I don't like your elitist "if you haven't read the graphic novel you don't know what you're talking about" attitude, but for clarification: I was indeed writing about the anime, and my analysis does not necessarily pertain to 1PM in other media.

It doesn't particularly matter what you like. Wanpanman was originally a webnovel, then it was adapted to manga and the anime is a direct adaption of the manga. Giving an opinion based on the anime while ignoring the direct source material is like arguing metaphysics after watching 2001: A Space Odyssey.

And I'm only sounding elitist because I can't correct your obvious wrong thoughts due to spoilers. You're trying to argue someone with more knowledge while using ye olde 'I don't know nor have I researched it, therefore it doesn't matter' - argument, but that doesn't particularly fly in this case. Ignorance isn't a sin, but volitional ignorance is.

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Charan escreveu:

I have been purposefully avoiding the J word. C minimises the villain's role in some really antiquated ways.

That makes sense. It's been a lot of years since I read the book and yes, I don't recall a balance of villains in there. Interesting.

You and Boem said the case by case stuff was boring. I didn't think so. I prefer to talk concrete cases, and contrast each one to build a theory. Going to pure theory does my head in, not even sure what I meant in that last post of mine because not tied to solid examples.

Boem, I found your post hard to understand. It sounds like you're saying that before WW2 the world was a simple place. is that right?

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erdelyii escreveu:

Boem, I found your post hard to understand. It sounds like you're saying that before WW2 the world was a simple place. is that right?

I was implying the moral landscape was easy post war.

My assumption is that the imprint on the human collective of "evil" is heightened to such an extend that morallity need not be discussed in the social fabric to a high degree.

I also assume patriotism is at an all time high post war(unity feelings) which makes "moral laws" easier to portray opposed to nuanced morality.

I think the classical hero is utilized in these times to represent the morality needed in those cases.

The anti-hero is an individual first, a hero after and the moral nuances and intriges are not usefull in the post war context.
I view this hero arche-type as a sign of a culture in unrest which seeks answers to very nuanced moral dilemas.

Want me to get into the generation stuff i layed out?

Maybe i should explain it in a different fashion. Think of it as somebody explaining a horendous act to you.

They told you the words, but the body doesn't know how that feels.

You can read about the wars, find a massive amount of data and collect it, feel horendous almost sick while reading it and yet it will come nowhere close to the experience itself of talking to somebody in a trench and seeing a bullet pierce his head or wading true a massive amount of body's collecting bullets from their corpses after a finished assault etc...

I think a similar thing happens with morality.

It is embedded firmly into the body in a post war state but silently fades away as new generations emerge.
These new generation are told the basic moral rules but they don't have the substenance the bodily experience provided them in previous generations so they lose resonance with the reality of the new generation.

Did that help or did i make it more complex PoE style?

Peace,

-Boem-

That did help, thank you.

I understand what you're saying. The same generation you are talking about being morally simple because of being burned in the crucible of war were messed up in ways by what they went through that affect us today. That there was minimal science to describe it in the 40's and a culture of getting on with it and not showing emotions too much does not mean it wasn't there dark and monstrous, millions fold. I suspect they wanted simple heroes for a bloody good reason, having been witness to and partaking in nightmare, the patriotic winners and the losers too.

You know, I won't delve into it more here because of what happened yesterday and I'm saying to self care, that means me too lol. If you're interested in extending your understanding of trauma, there's plenty of material out there to illuminate you. The science is fascinating, lots of stuff coming out of Israel, unsurprisingly.

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erdelyii escreveu:

That did help, thank you.

I understand what you're saying. The same generation you are talking about being morally simple because of being burned in the crucible of war were messed up in ways by what they went through that affect us today. That there was minimal science to describe it in the 40's and a culture of getting on with it and not showing emotions too much does not mean it wasn't there dark and monstrous, millions fold. I suspect they wanted simple heroes for a bloody good reason, having been witness to and partaking in nightmare, the patriotic winners and the losers too.

You know, I won't delve into it more here because of what happened yesterday and I'm saying to self care, that means me too lol. If you're interested in extending your understanding of trauma, there's plenty of material out there to illuminate you. The science is fascinating, lots of stuff coming out of Israel, unsurprisingly.

Yeah i never attempted to downplay the tragedy or post-war scarring.

I mentioned it in my initial post as a reason to explicitly look the other way while "knowing" and "feeling" what horror/evil is like.

It's the reason why i stated they need the moral simple landscape both because it is comforting and because the world is deprived of nuance for a period of time post war.

I wasn't making light of those people by using the therm "simple moral landscape", i meant simple as in absence of complexity not as stupid or dumb.
They had every reason to desire some simplicity after the enormous stress on their morals requiring extreme forms of nuances to sometimes even deliver family members or neighbours to the enemy in order to live another day and what have you not scenario's we can't comprehend in the least.

Peace,

-Boem-

That makes sense Boem. Off Topic's taken a turn for the shit the last few days. maybe I'm just noticing. A little of both. No point multiplying it with an earnest discussion of trauma. Someone else might want to take that up.

Bearcares called me the Luke Skywalker of Off Topic, which if he's read my first post in this thread he'd realise isn't a compliment to me, as the Jedi are an insufferable, inept, repressed, and fascist lot. Ofh sure they can battle it out with the lightsabres and the mind trick is cool.

However, bearcares wasn't wrong in identifying a blazing light-seeking streak in me, and a kind of crusading earnestness. Bear with me this ties into the topic -- I get that it was a goofy very bearcares kind of compliment. I thought, damn, outed, and I best mix it up a bit but was also happy to agree. Cynicism is easy, and while a dash is advised and I don't regret a hardcore grounding in just how fucked up people can be, it's a nasty confirming little world the cynic inhabits, in the modern sense if not the classical.

Our own personal narratives are fascinating to examine, can be useful tools for growth, and the powerful thing with them is that they are malleable, unlike fiction. To cast anyone as a role might work for making a point, or even for a time, but life isn't a work of fiction. It's way messier and stranger, and always open to revision. In my experience, the greatest moments of growth come when you realise how much we hamper ourselves by honing in one one element of an experience that plays to a negative narrative and which often suits others view of you and themselves. Sure, there's one read, but what about the counter-narratives? The act of examining them. I think Socrates understood this, and many others since.

I would have said that in the thread, but it got locked (just as well). It does tie into the talk of the various characters in plots. I like the case by case because each has a shape, and a texture. It's almost like a wardrobe, trying on different clothes as an audience member, and the finest are the cleverest stitched or the most breathtakingly original, maybe even the simplest but perfectly balanced. We absorb the patterns, get out of our own messy lives for a wile, compare to our own experiences, and enjoy how neat and satisfying it all is precisely because life just isn't like that with its open ends, random happenings, no author (unless you're religious) and dynamic casts.

If you don't like clothes in all their variety and art that's not going to resonate. It's lightly stitched, anyway. Plot mechanisms are a dynamic artform, especially as setting them up entirely mechanically doesn't tend to work as characters come from elsewhere and have minds of their own.

Midsummer Night's Dream diagram. Just one of many ways of drawing it.

The greatest villains are set into solid plots. They bring elements of the plot, as well, of course. A bad plot brings out the ridiculous in a villain, as there's no traction for them to do anything but posture, look silly, and make grandiose speeches. Chicken and egg stuff, I hear you say Boem. Quite right.

Can you think of any amazing villains in a bad plot?

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erdelyii escreveu:

Can you think of any amazing villains in a bad plot?

I thought about it and maybe i just don't know enough story's.

The only answer i could come up with was "maybe god/lucifer" if your one of those people that views humans as having eaten the apple,flawed and in need of correction?

And even then, the plot is ever unfolding and i'm an optimist by nature.

As for personal examination, i think starting out from a duality viewpoint is very common and the most thought mindset.
A person would need both the apreciation and mental space to create voids in between those dual points of reference and fill them in.(creativity/fantasy)

In the absence of such an act we lose nuance, as per example the trump thread.

Some very inteligent people in that thread can easily be considered kindergarten citizens at this point for their lack of nuance.
Which again is just a "moment" of the entirity of their being, a not favorable moment but not a defining moment.

Going back to the mental space and creativity, i think in the current times it's exceedingly hard to get this freedom. People are hectic and bussy and the times when they finally have some freedom i don't think a lot of people use it to contemplate the grey.

I was looking at my mom her agenda recently and i physically got a head-ache just from watching it.
I found it so utterly pathetic that every single minute was "locked in".
And this might sound familiar to some people, if she fails to succesfully finish her "locked in agenda" she will punish herself mentally.(she's perfectionistic in nature)
And when that agenda loses it's control, there is always the cell-phone demanding attention in the few spare hours a person has.

In the absence of time to contemplate the self and the grey, i think a lot of mental issue's arise out of build-up conflict.
Or perhaps more accurate, the grey is the area where you find "your" answer to a situation that might diverge from another human.
And in the absence of finding that answer for yourself you end up with "the lack of an answer" also known as stress.

People are utterly fascinating and beautifull which justifies this world being called a heaven even if just for show.
Their decisions amaze me most of the time and i think of myself as having a fair grip on how things operate which simply pushes me forward to look and learn more.

The game of life is grand and worth every minute :)

Peace,

-Boem-