Does Ryslatha’s Coil actually scale bleed damage?

This discussion has come up a lot, but I still find a lot of discordance in the opinions.
I will write what I gathered from my research, so please correct me if I am wrong anywhere.

First off, many people still have the idea that “bleed damage scales off of the initial hit”, so the bigger the hit the bigger the damage.
This is actually not true anymore since some patches ago (3.7? I’m not sure), when specific modifiers were introduced to scale ailments damage.
There is a video from ZiggyD who explains this very well.

Let’s define X= [(weapon phys damage)+(added phys damage)]
Assuming pure physical damage output, this how on-hit damage (OHD) is calculated:
OHD=X x Y
Where Y includes all modifiers for the physical damage.

Now the bleed damage (BD):
BD=X x Z
Where Z includes all modifiers that affect bleed damage.

Now, some modifiers will impact both Y and Z. Specifically:
- generic damage
- generic physical damage
- damage while wielding (not “with”) or while “doing something”
However, it needs to be clear that, since double dipping was nerfed, Y does not impact Z.


If this is clear, we can go back to the initial question: does Ryslatha’s Coil scale bleed damage?
Ryslatha boosts Physical ATTACK damage. Not generic physical damage, not generic damage, which means it has an impact on our Y parameter for the on-hit damage, not the Z for the bleed damage.

Now for the real 2 questions I have:
1) am I completely wrong?
2) if not, why are people still using Ryslatha thinking it boosts their damage in their bleed builds? Even ZiggyD, who made a very clear video to explain ailment damage scaling, is using it in hit latest bleed
Gladiator build!!


p.s. PoB does not recognise the Ryslatha’s modifiers, but if you edit them to say a more simple “more attack damage” (not the real effect obviously, just for testing) it will boost your on-hit damage while the bleed dps does not budge.

My hypothesis is that Ryslatha's indirectly increased bleed damage because your main hit damage will be higher, thereby increasing bleed damage? idk

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Potential damage from one bleed application is based on the base physical damage of attack that caused it: 70% per second if the target is standing still (10% if an enemy monster applied it), if the target is moving it will take an additional +140% for a total of 210% per second if the target is moving [2].

Ryslatha's Coil increases the base damage and therefore the bleed damage

So yes, it scales bleed damage

One last thing.. You can use PoB Fork to see how Ryslatha's affects your bleed dps. It's a must-have tool for fine-tuning your build.

it gives you higher topend which is a higher max bleed roll, in a way its similar to how lightning skills are better for ignite than fire skills because they are limited in how many applications you can have to 1-3000 is better than 1500.

For this to not work on bleeds it would have to specific with hits, all the other modifiers would apply to ailments as usual.

However I will say that the wording is very nebulous and I wouldn't be surprised at all to have GGG clarify at some point and go nope doesn't work. I personally don't use it :p and you have to remember this unique is a stun belt not a bleed belt, its purpose was for that so again wouldn't be surprised to find we were all wrong.

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HwtChirino escreveu:

My hypothesis is that Ryslatha's indirectly increased bleed damage because your main hit damage will be higher, thereby increasing bleed damage? idk

If that was true, inc % phys damage would scale both the initial hit AND the bleed, hence double dipping. Same would happen for poison and ignite.
As we all know, that is not happening anymore.

But I will check out PoB Fork, thanks!

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ArtCrusade escreveu:

"

Potential damage from one bleed application is based on the base physical damage of attack that caused it: 70% per second if the target is standing still (10% if an enemy monster applied it), if the target is moving it will take an additional +140% for a total of 210% per second if the target is moving [2].

Ryslatha's Coil increases the base damage and therefore the bleed damage

So yes, it scales bleed damage

I read that on the wiki, and it is maybe one of the sources of confusion since it does not better explain what it means by "base damage of an attack".
That base attack damage is (I think) what I defined as X: base weapon damage+added # phys modifiers.
In the same wiki page by the way, it states:
"Other modifiers of increased/reduced/more/less type affecting hits (attack, melee, ranged, projectile, etc), as well as any damage modifier specific to the skill, do not apply to bleed."

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Draegnarrr escreveu:

For this to not work on bleeds it would have to specific with hits, all the other modifiers would apply to ailments as usual.

From what I understand, attack damage IS an on-hit modifier. Same as "chance to deal double damage" modifier. It doesn't say it explicitly though.

I don't mean any insult to you, but please take it from the people who have put time and effort into learning this kind of stuff prior to you trying out Assailum this season. ;-)

It works as intended and installing and using the LocalIdentity Fork for PoB would tell you as much

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cane_cane escreveu:

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Draegnarrr escreveu:

For this to not work on bleeds it would have to specific with hits, all the other modifiers would apply to ailments as usual.

From what I understand, attack damage IS an on-hit modifier. Same as "chance to deal double damage" modifier. It doesn't say it explicitly though.

For me though the attack damage part is required to maintain the specificity of the item, if you take that line out it works on bladefall which is probably fine but not really intended.

Maybe it should read with attack skills, hmmmm.... getting lost in the many definitions of PoE words now lol

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ArtCrusade escreveu:

I don't mean any insult to you, but please take it from the people who have put time and effort into learning this kind of stuff prior to you trying out Assailum this season. ;-)

It works as intended and installing and using the LocalIdentity Fork for PoB would tell you as much

When I start a build that uses a mechanic I am not familiar with, the first thing I do is learn completely how it works to optimize it fully.
Even if Ryslatha affected bleeding damage, I would still not use it because I don't like the damage spread for a bow build. But I want to understand how this works.
The typical answer "it boosts your initial hit, which scales your bleeding damage" is simply wrong, that is for sure. But maybe the more/less min/max damage on Ryslatha makes it work like an added flat damage to the weapon phys damage... it would be strange and not well worded, but it could be.
No insult taken of course.

This is another interesting topic I found on the matter:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2480910/page/1#p21857997

Few days ago I got to the Mark_GGG answer directly, but I cannot find it right now.

With so many people jumping on using it all of sudden, I'm going to guess it does. But the wording on the belt really shouldn't scale it. More Attack Damage has never really scaled it in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if this some bug that will be fixed up next league.