[feedback] bored to death

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MaxTheLimit escreveu:

What does that have to do with the questions I asked?

I'm just saying, it doesn't matter what build, by the time you are on your 4th run through, it isn't fun anymore. It's like an extra chore to get to Chaos at the moment. Every build I do, I get to that point and I don't want to play anymore.

But yes, higher level skills would have a good impact and will be added. It just won't solve the boredom aspect.

I apologize for not really answering your question the first time.

Whats the "difference" between running Diablo or Baal say like 10 times (or even better, hundreds of tries...) in the same 'difficulty' and doing a complete run minor multiple times (in fact of POE, four) with somewhat rising difficulty, somewhat scaling behaviour of the foes?

What for strange demanding players are there all out there?

For anybody, who sets this kind of playstyle over the rest of the game (esp. graphics) I can suggest to try a game called Shadowflare
(http://denyu-sha.co.jp/english/product/sf/package.html
http://www.shadowflare.us/)

Its old, with somewhat crappy graphics, local + Lan multiplayer, some real different basic ideas in playstyle and other aspects, available in english even for coming from a japanese company; and it put the whole difficulty thing into 4 sequently following episodes... and its really hard at the end (and only has a not so easy start, too). But if you're interested to go behind the first (free available) episode, bring patience and time with you, there are very long ways to go, even between the portals, and some extremly long fights (some counting in a couple of hours!) are awaiting you...

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Mr_Cee escreveu:

Whats the "difference" between running Diablo or Baal say like 10 times (or even better, hundreds of tries...) in the same 'difficulty' and doing a complete run minor multiple times (in fact of POE, four) with somewhat rising difficulty, somewhat scaling behaviour of the foes?

The promise of big loots upon killing Diablo or Baal. Also, the reason they do runs instead of just going through the game is because they want to power level and get to finish their build, instead of playing through the full difficulties which takes much longer. It is boring to do that because of the slow pace of progression especially when you have already done those areas.

I am not saying it should be like that. Chaos and Baal runs for leveling is a broken mechanic in Diablo. But it allowed people to not have to go through the entire game over and over every time they wanted to try a new build. I guess it is just a bit of a downside to arpgs. Lots of repetitiveness to get to a goal. Having too many difficulties gets you burnt out on the game in pretty much one build. A third act will help with this some.

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sharkh20 escreveu:

Chaos and Baal runs for leveling is a broken mechanic in Diablo. But it allowed people to not have to go through the entire game over and over every time they wanted to try a new build.

This is the part that makes the entire practice of power-leveling illogical in this type of game. Why is having to play the game with new characters a downside to creating them? Isn't that the whole point of creating them in the first place? I'll never understand this (although I do understand that a lot of people just want to obtain bragging rights without actually earning them, so maybe that's it). Playing the game is supposed to be the fun part, after all. Isn't that the point of video games... to be played, not just beaten?
[/offtopic]

I still firmly believe this game is going to by great.
Definitely MY "sequel" to D2.

When...
The level cap is 99 (I hope).
The Final Act is complete.
There are a ton of Skills/Uniques/Rares.
There are BOSS Runs.
There are People to kill with said Skills/Uniques/Rares acquired from BOSS Runs.

Everyone will be playing not complaining. (Almost everyone)
The game will expand.
The game will be played for years to come.

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sharkh20 escreveu:

Having too many difficulties gets you burnt out on the game in pretty much one build.

Or give you the ability to 'complete' the basic content with a given/tried char without the need to "beat" the whole game, without the need to reach max-level before (...noticing epic failures) ^^

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sharkh20 escreveu:

A third act will help with this some.

And this "addition" will come, soon; so I see no real reason to discuss its missing in the actual beta stage. That the content range _now_ is missing something, is really a no-brainer.

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WhiteBoy88 escreveu:

Playing the game is supposed to be the fun part, after all. Isn't that the point of video games... to be played, not just beaten?

100 % ack.

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MythicSkunk escreveu:

I still firmly believe this game is going to by great.
Definitely MY "sequel" to D2.

100% ack.

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sharkh20 escreveu:

The promise of big loots upon killing Diablo or Baal. Also, the reason they do runs instead of just going through the game is because they want to power level and get to finish their build, instead of playing through the full difficulties which takes much longer. It is boring to do that because of the slow pace of progression especially when you have already done those areas.

What my comparsion should stand for: It makes no matter for what reason, as long as there are reasons (and may this be simply fun) to do any kind of repetition in a game like these. You may be rewarded with loot (much loot while playing game, better loot while doing bossruns), with exp gain, with playing skill through training ...even with new builds when redo complete(!) ;)
There is always a reason to do, if it entertains you, although it demands some effort. If it bores you (generally), take your hands and fingers away, it may not the right game for you...

I was trying to think of a away to stir things up a little so things would not get as stale and I remembered how much I enjoyed Diablo I's quest system. For those not old enough to remember (I played it online before completing elementary school, so I was 'underage'), it only had 3 core quests (i.e. Chamber of Bone, Archbishop Lazarus, Diablo) and a number of 'random side quests' that were not necessary to complete the game.

How I though it could work for POE, that there are 3 tiers of quests: 'core quests', 'core side quests' and 'random side quests'. The 'core quests' would be those that you cannot proceed though the game without completing (e.g. Breaking Some Eggs, The Caged Brute and The Siren's Last Cadence). The 'core side quests' are those that are not 'necessary', but it would be rather stupid not to get them (e.g. The Dweller of the Deep and The Marooned Mariner). The 'random side quests' would be just like those in Diablo I, in that they do not always appear and you do not have to do them, but they provide some sort of tangible benefit.

What that tangible benefit would be is up in the air, as giving away items other than overly common items (Mercy Mission's flasks/vials) is prone to abuse, in that people have been rushed through the game by advanced players in exchange for the orbs or accessories that once were offered as quest rewards, so I thought that these rewards could yet again take a page from Diablo I. Yes, items were offered for most of the rewards, but there was one quest The Black Mushroom that gave the Spectral Elixir as a reward, but more specifically what the elixir granted Attribute points (i.e. something that cannot be given/traded away). The random side quests could also provide things like vendor ware resets (which could be used at any time like passive point resets), something small to permanently aid your combat prowess (e.g. 3% elemental damage) or something along those lines.

A way these random side quests could be structured is that there could be 2-3 per act, per difficulty and a selection of 6 or more from which they could be randomly chosen from. How parties under this system could work, is that a player could not get more than the 2-3 designated in any act/difficulty, if a member already completed that quest or the maximum allowed per act, they could still help another player complete it, they just would not receive the reward.

Some examples of 'random side quests' could be bodyguard quests (in which a npc is protected until a certain point), collection quests (like the aforementioned Black Mushroom quest), bodyguard/collecting quests (the npc is protected while they collect the ingredients for your reward), timed quests (complete an objective within a certain amount of time), or something entirely different (e.g. killing a unique monster) and a number of quest types could even be combined (e.g. timed/bodyguard/collecting quests where parts are acquired from a number of slain unique monsters).

What do you think?

In these games, once you complete it once.
Youve seen it all. No need to repeat through it again. In this game, you already have to repeat the same content 4 times! FOUR TIMES. GIVE ME A BREAK.

To me, the game, MY GAME, start after you unlock Maelstrom of Chaos. Despite all the content Ive devaluated by this way of thinking, to me its like 2 different games.

One game is act 1 and act 2, you repeat them in a harder environment to keep leveling up and upgrading your equipment and getting more skills points. But your state of power, your character progression changes too fast for you to sit down and appreciate anything more than once or twice. Its too ephemere. I just rush through areas to kill the targets that are scripted conditions for progress to other acts. In a few days and you are over this phase. Its just a warm up. An introductory meal.

I dont even read the quests a second time, I dont even know the name of the monsters I killed or npcs I interacted with. Only a few things mattered or had any meaning: I saw there was a big butcher demon dude that dropped a lot of loot and it was cool. I saw there was some naked chicks luring me on the cave before Merveil Lair and it was cool. I saw Merveil had this cool transformation. Then I went and killed a big humanoid/arachnid, entered this church with cool spiders trapping me from all sides, killed a big ass spider weaver in a cave. Then killed some bandits to solve the natives problem and get me more power. Entered this maze like pyramid and activated a cool device to unlock a door. That was the first game, the scripted game content.

I feel no need to repeat this ever again. Open Beta will be the last time I do this chore. Its not cool and amazing each time I do it. What is amazing is killing a bunch of enemies and dropping 15 items. That I can repeat over and over again, but it only matters if I do this at the highest content level.

The main event is the "End game", wich in ARPG hack and slashes with itemization is the POWER GAME.

The "second game" within the game starts on Maelstrom of Chaos. There is no script to it, Im there and they are there and we look each other in the eyes. They have lots of shiny things and magic equipment that might be usefull to me and they are out of luck because I came to mass murder everyone of them and loot their shit.
Thats the "story". Thats the game. Thats what they expect us to keep playing for months. See? The current Maelstrom of Chaos was just a thrown together placeholder content that re-uses all the game assets. Only god knows how much actual time, effort and resources went into "the first game" (Act 1 and 2) but to me, its way devaluated compared to Maelstrom of Chaos. I spent most of my time on Maelstrom of Chaos. I detracted most of the challenge and satisfaction and rewards from Maelstrom of Chaos. The "first game" felt like a chore the moment I finished it on normal. Repeating it on cruel, ruthless and merciless was only bearable because of the promise of Maelstrom of Chaos.

Now from the developer stand point... How does that happen? That the area of the game you focused most of your effort is actually the area most devaluated by the players?

The first game ends in the first half of a week. The second game ends when you beat consistently "ALL CONTENT", whatever raid, dungeon, boss, enemy, difficulty mode there is. And then you wait for them to come up with something new, fresher, or just harder. In Diablo 3, they cap you at level 60, so they can outdate your "power game" time investment with an expansion, milking the suckers. Here they give you the integrity of "power game" with 100 levels. There players will be guaranteed to have a reason to buy the expansion, because it grabs them by the nuts "power game".

The legitimate reason to keep playing for me is just to acquire more POWER. But even then, there is no point if I really dont need more power (because its too easy).

So the shortcomming of the game is how easy it is. How beatable it is. How much time it takes to make it beatable. Right now its straightforward rape of content.

Once they add ACT 3, instead of taking the first half of a week to beat the "first game", it might take a full week if the overall time/content adds in 50%.

After that period of time, be it first half of a week or a full week, acquiring power to surpass the difficulty curve becomes the game. Because the "first game", people feel ENTITLED TO CONSUME.

That is and ever was an integral part ARPG Hack and Slash roguelikes. The "main game" and "power game".

Most people who play ARPG hack and slash roguelikes couldnt care more about "main game". They play it once and they dont want to repeat it, because they deem it waste of time.

Those who keep playing, do so because of the "power game". Thats what the majority of the ARPG Hack and Slash seeks in these games. Thats what the design has to be focused on, where the balance, difficulty, itemization, longevity and whatever character progression/customization has to shine.

For most, its like watching porn. People dont watch it for the story. Its ok if it has some interesting story, like those japanese hentai.
Actually the story doesnt matter, its incidental. Its incidental that Diablo had good soundtrack, memorable voice overs, interesting setting, awesome cinematics.

It only lasted that long because of the Closed Battle.net "Power Game", wich was based on the "Item game". Repeat over and over to get extra random rolls of potentially more powerfull equipment. Thats why F2P sell pay to win items. Thats why F2P games became to be designed with itemization/upgrade systems in mind. I could even go further, thats why most MMOs are combat centric. The industry generates billions of dollars just because of that. The "power game" is nuclear.

You have the itemization vertical character progression game, wich is a product that is almost as addicting as crack and more ever lasting than post sex satisfaction.

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Interesting escreveu:

To me, the game, MY GAME, start after you unlock Maelstrom of Chaos. Despite all the content Ive devaluated by this way of thinking, to me its like 2 different games.

The main event is the "End game", wich in ARPG hack and slashes with itemization is the POWER GAME.

This is Hack&Slash, but this is ARPG too - around 80%, maybe even higher, of the game is to make your build, to level it, to gear it up, and to get firm with the game mechanics. (and its near absolutely irrelevant if this have to be done in one 'session' or in multiple (kind of difficulties) iterations)
The "rest" parts up ~50/50 in the last way to perfect for the char and the endgame at very very last. Another once more - who dont want to do the "main work", should try other games.