Comprehensive feedback

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Xendran escreveu:

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Moosifer escreveu:

It's a shame. I keep hoping they lower mob damage, as that's the biggest issue of all but they seem firm about not doing so.

I don't want to sound like i'm trying to be insulting to GGG, but i genuinely believe that they don't know how to balance video games properly in a way that ends up being enjoyable. They have the drive to make a good game, but lately i've been doubting their ability to balance. It takes quite a lot of skill, math, and playtime (If carl is a dedicated balancer, he should have a playtime in the top 5 or 10%, because how can you be savvy to all the intricate balance details unless you play excessively to experience them?).


Also, copypaste this and throw it on reddit, GGG is shooting themselves in the foot by responding on reddit with a much much higher rate. (They say its easier for them if people post here on the forums, but because they never respond to good feedback in any meaningful amount anymore people are encouraged to just throw it onto reddit instead.)

Devs discuss balance on reddit? Thats stupid.

Also just want to say, you can balance a game VERY well without a high playtime. The other two things, skills and math are very important though, but really you don't have to have a huge playtime, indeed this can cause disruptions to balance based on pre-concieved notions of what is and isn't balanced due to how he is playing.

That being said, they must be knowledgeable about a variety of potentially workable builds, and test situations against these to see if they are possible. This would have very quickly shown melee to be downtrodden if this was how it was being done (for example try a simple cleave build and clearing maps with generated gear so its of a certain 'value')

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Real_Wolf escreveu:

Also just want to say, you can balance a game VERY well without a high playtime.

In them ajority of games, yes. PoE, i'd be inclined to say no. The amount of combinations and various things that require testing is so high that it's borderline impossible to balance it without a massive amount of experience.

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Xendran escreveu:

I don't want to sound like i'm trying to be insulting to GGG, but i genuinely believe that they don't know how to balance video games properly in a way that ends up being enjoyable.

OK, I want to give you some quotes from a Brother Laz interview Chris featured on the site, which I believe are extremely relevant for how GGG feels about balancing PoE. Enjoy...

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Everyone wants to win. Everyone therefore wants the stuff that will help him win, and play the game in order to obtain this stuff. But when you actually give it to them they will eat it all and quit. You have to feed the players just enough to keep them addicted but not enough to make them sated.

Yes, kids, we think you are lab rats. Now please don’t complain and if you click hard enough on the boss we may give you a shiny food pellet. Gummy bear flavoured.

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When an ARPG features difficult content, this typically means you need to grind a ton before the game lets you win, or alternatively you need to make a very specific build or fail.

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Because of the importance of rewarding players for making good choices, blindly striving for a high level of balance between items and builds is a bad idea because it makes build planning and item finding much less important. You need weak items and builds for people to feel good about having strong items and builds…

Read these things good. VERY GOOD.

Why do I think they are relevant? Well, Brother Laz is the guy that makes uniques. GGG contacted him, as far as I know. They wanted him. From patch notes and GGG posts, my opinion is that their feelings about gaming balance are quite similar.

I'm talking about things like balancing skills with each other, handling enemy damages, what type of skills enemies should be using, handling risk vs reward, handling party vs solo, melee vs ranged, etc.

The biggest balance issue right now to me is the fact that enemy damages seem to be heavily overtuned to make up for a lack of aggressive AI, very small skill sets, no skill synergies on enemies and little to no AoEs.

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Xendran escreveu:

I'm talking about things like balancing skills with each other, handling enemy damages, what type of skills enemies should be using, handling risk vs reward, handling party vs solo, melee vs ranged, etc.

The biggest balance issue right now to me is the fact that enemy damages seem to be heavily overtuned to make up for a lack of aggressive AI, very small skill sets, no skill synergies on enemies and little to no AoEs.

Read Brother Laz's interview...

I get very well what you guys are saying, and given quite a few facts, my opinion is that GGG does not even seek such fine balancing. Once, I had in my sig "Make the game balanced". Took it out. First eye opener was when a mod here (was it you, Charan? I can't remember) told me balance is not a priority for GGG. I was stunned, when in my mindset, it was the most important thing, or there would be no real fairness in the game. But I kept it in mind, and looked around, and now I reached my own conclusion, which is the same, balance is not a priority here.
This is not to say there isn't ANY balance. Of course there is. Some :) And as Laz says, things are made so to allow the ones that are really powerful to feel like that, to reward "good decisions"... which is really, really bad if it creates such imbalance in the game IMO.

PS: Also, the game mechanics and the amount of freedom in the tree make things way harder to balance...

The thing is the games I've enjoyed the most are D2, fallout new vegas, skyrim, and FF series. All you quickly reach a point where you are very powerful and just grinding for perfect gear and max level.

D2 wasn't hard content wise yet people played the shit out of it. D3 was extremely hard and people bitched endless about it.

I liked when the push of the game was being difficult but many builds are viable. Now builds are so similar and the ones doing well are basically copies of each other with the same gear.

I guess I mostly miss the days where 120-150% life could be viable in maps. Now if you have less than 200% you're just asking for hell.

Also, there are almost no active mechanics in this game, so it's pretty hard to make it legitimately hard. Avoiding attacks with proper timing isn't something that exists outside of Vaal, Brutus to an extent, and Piety to an extent.

Making this game 'hard'er the way they do it isn't accomplishing the purpose of having a hard game, either.

The purpose of having a hard game is to create a sense of accomplishment or achievment when you increase your skill level to a point where you can overcome a challenge.

What feels better: Man, i'm so glad i finally learned how to dodge that one attack and what openings to look for on that boss, kicked his ass finally!

Or: Man, i'm so glad i finally grinded even more so that i could have enough hp to not get oneshot by this boss so i could sit outside its attack range and whittle away at it's massive hp from offscreen.

What "hard" means in ARPGs:

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When an ARPG features difficult content, this typically means you need to grind a ton before the game lets you win, or alternatively you need to make a very specific build or fail.

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That doesn't mean it's the proper way to do it. In fact with the way that D3 and PoE are turning out, it's pointing toward the conclusion that it really isn't.

If GGG wants to make a difficult hardcore arpg, they should try innovating within the genre to find new ways to make it hard other than ONLY grinding. I like that you have to grind, but having grinding and enemy damage being the only factors in difficulty results in a very boring style of difficulty.

but that depends on your definition of win.

If you're mission is to complete the story, well ya that's not a problem for most builds.

For me, and I think at least many people playing this type of game the goal is max level and min maxing gear. If gear has to be maxed out to be able to handle the content there's no fun in the hunt. You don't get rewarded for your efforts. Spend months gathering shit to not be OP, just be comfortable. It's depressing.