Crit Multiplier + Diamond Flask (still) too powerful

Double post ftl

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Torin escreveu:

No it is not the same. Flasks make many other builds weaker. By build I also mean passive point placement not only skill+support combinations. Why find optimal combination of critical chance/critical damage when you don't need critical chance?!

This is a fallacy that I observe frequently, whether it be about a build optimized to run many auras, spell totems, diamond flasks, or whatever the next op flavor of the week is. My passive crit chance build is not made weaker by the existence of your diamond-flask passive crit multi build. Is my build weaker compared to yours? Possibly. Does the existence of your build suddenly mean I'm less capable of maintaining efficient kill speed when running content? He'll no.

What does impact the viability of my builds, is proposing all of these nerfs without considering one important element that this game adds to the balance: choice. Don't like diamond flasks? Don't use them. Don't like totems... You guessed it..

In PoE we have choice as a balancing mechanic, because there are so many choices we can make, there are likewise many ways to skin a cat (or whatever the expression is) and I feel that most of these cries for change are made without taking personal accountability for the choices you make with your build. It seems to me, that most of the time, people are motivated by "I want the most powerful build, but I want the game to be hard and I don't like the way this mechanic makes my character powerful."

The determining factor should be kill speed, the efficiency at which a build can clear content for a profit; not how much more effective or easier one build is over another. Having easy builds is good, if you don't like "too easy" then don't play it. Now, if the build clears content at far to advantageous of a pace, then we should discuss change.

I'm not saying Diamond Flasks aren't a candidate under those criteria (as a matter of fact I believe they are), but I am saying the quoted argument is bs and needs to stop being made if we're going to assist in cultivating a healthy environment for players to make creative builds. This line of reasoning, I see, having no positive outcome except to nerf so many build enabling skills that we literally do only have a few choices.

CanHasPants, overpowered things like Diamond Flasks _do_ make other builds weaker in a roundabout way. They are a form of power creep. The highest level players are using them and saying the game isn't hard enough, and then GGG raises the global damage or life of enemies and the non-DF build suffers for it.

i think you should make the build that is what you want out of the character. if you think the elf from LOTR is stupid than dont make a ranger. if you like the movie blade then well... okay there is no blaack guy. but my point is make the guy that has swag, and ggg will eventually rotate you to being op provided you figure out how to optimize your build.

as an answer to "diamond flasks make me less powerful" lets try this.

instead of weakening another player to somehow magically increase your power lets figure out how we can actually increase your power. personally i would like to be able to run an assassin that didnt have to carry a dumb shield because that is dumb and it would make an assassin less agile and likely to bump into a wall. so i think they should buff dual wield in some way to make it less inferior to the same exact build but using a shield. maybe since the block rate is lower and defense is lower maybe make dual block have no block animation no matter how much damage was blocked? or lets add some gems that make an assassin character less reliant on defense. (lets see an add crit chance % to + dmg keystone!!! for all you who think crit chance is worthless)

or maybe dual wield IS op and i just havent invented the build yet :D

(also there should be a katana that is a 2 handed dagger class sword :D)

i have so many ideas how about change the "swag" keystone to 100% chance to deal crit strike after a dodge evade or parry (maybe pick 2 of the 3 so its not TOO op :D)

or hey just give my guy 2 mini uzis

IMO the problem isn't the flasks themselves but the fact that you can have 5 in your belt & effectively 100% up time. Make it 1 max of each special flask in your belt & the problem is solved without damaging anything but 5flask builds. Too much sense?

that doesnt work because it still destroys the build. having even 4 flasks makes you lose in pvp if its a 5 win series

i still like my idea of making the flasks have twice as many charges but still consumes all charges in one gulp. this makes the up time 50% of the time instead of 100% and so the build still needs to be able to function without 100% crit.

also i see the addition of new flasks and more complex flask mechanics to eventually phase out the dominance of the diamond. what if there were res flasks that actually were good? would be worth carrying at least one given the -res in higher difficulties.

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pneuma escreveu:

CanHasPants, overpowered things like Diamond Flasks _do_ make other builds weaker in a roundabout way. They are a form of power creep. The highest level players are using them and saying the game isn't hard enough, and then GGG raises the global damage or life of enemies and the non-DF build suffers for it.

Yes, they complain that the game is too easy without acknowledging the personal responsibility that comes with choice: they chose to play "easy mode."

I'm arguing about perspective in a dynamic situation where the knee jerk reaction is to throw the baby out with the bath water and just nerf the shit out of whatever the new op flavor of the week is. It's ineffectual and overly sentimental, I'm aware, I'm just trying to shift perspective to a broader dynamic that includes player choice as a consequence, rather than just "this build is too op, nerf a mechanic."

On the topic of diamond flasks in particular, I do believe they need to be changed but I do not want to see their base functionality altered. I enjoy using a single diamond flask for "oh f... sh.." emergency reaction moments where I have to guarantee a spike in dps to avoid certain demise. Changing their base functionality would likely lead to that no longer being an option.

If it is ultimately decided that they are indeed in need of a nerf, I wouldn't mind seeing them restricted to a single flask on your belt, with a passive cluster that interacts with the number of equipable "special" flasks, and perhaps a unique belt that adds another (personally, I like uniques that enable builds, as they often present the quandary of just how many rare god mods am I willing to sacrifice to make this build happen; in this case, lacking increased charge recovery on that belt would add to the build-enabling conflict that appeals to me)

i wonder if hiding peoples builds on the forum would actually make any individual build less likely to be nerfed. if everyone wasnt copying invelesco mebbe they wouldnt be nerfind ci?

lesson of the day if you make a good build dont post a build guide and dont make youtube videos :D

lets instead have noob guides like "how to make an okay guy that uses regular weapons"

i want to say about build enabling gear. WHAT IS A NOOB TO DO

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CanHasPants escreveu:

On the topic of diamond flasks in particular, I do believe they need to be changed but I do not want to see their base functionality altered. I enjoy using a single diamond flask for "oh f... sh.." emergency reaction moments where I have to guarantee a spike in dps to avoid certain demise. Changing their base functionality would likely lead to that no longer being an option.

This is exactly how I feel Diamonds should work (& more than likely intended). An "oh shit" flask is a great idea. The problem IMO is that with 5 you are able to keep them up 100% of the time & they then go from being a spike in damage to being your actual damage.

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myr escreveu:

that doesnt work because it still destroys the build. having even 4 flasks makes you lose in pvp if its a 5 win series

The game doesn't need to be balanced around PVP.

my solution woorks for everyone if each flask just takes longer to refill than it functions prmiarily as an oh shiz. if you have 5 of them it gives you more oh shizes but with an up time of 50% at max then you cant rely intirely on them and fatsest kill speed might be a mix of crit chance AND diamonds.

if you limit to only one in your belt you do in fact destroy some builds while still keeping your oh shiz function.

the game doesnt need to be balanced to pvp but pvp does need to be balanced and all you do is destroy an equally viable pvp build that is not op and you are not adding any potential builds.

so if the problem is in pve maybe we need to look at the mass AOE powers like chain :/
if you really get down to it diamonds are only op because hitting everything on and off the screen in one hit is more op than trying to crowd control with flicker strike.

Imagine there's no pants
It's easy if you try
No cloth below us
Above us only sky
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