A cornerstone of ARPGs is replay value

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Spy_Lord escreveu:

To the guy above: it is clear that you just haven't experienced/tried high level maps with different builds yourself.

I run 76/77/78 maps only nowadays, often with top 50 ladder players. The build diversity is profound. I literally cannot think of a time when two identical builds have been in one of my parties. Even builds that appear the same are often radically different: melee marauders/duellists I run with have such different equipment and passive node priorities that they are essentially totally different builds.

It's also notable how bad the gear of some of these guys are. A level 92 I run with uses a 230pdps one hander - in other words, he uses a main weapon worth about 15 chaos. He runs 78s all day though and almost never dies (as is required when grinding post level 90). People on these forums live in a fantasy about the 'über gear without which I can't do maps yo', and it's just that: a fantasy.

I imagine that the bulk of the posters that have issues are also unwilling to play in parties, for whatever reason(s). The most legitimate of these reasons is that you are not a "real" PoE player unless you are solo facerolling top end maps with soul crushing mods on them.

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Spy_Lord escreveu:

To the guy above: it is clear that you just haven't experienced/tried high level maps with different builds yourself.

I run 76/77/78 maps only nowadays, often with top 50 ladder players. The build diversity is profound. I literally cannot think of a time when two identical builds have been in one of my parties. Even builds that appear the same are often radically different: melee marauders/duellists I run with have such different equipment and passive node priorities that they are essentially totally different builds.

It's also notable how bad the gear of some of these guys are. A level 92 I run with uses a 230pdps one hander - in other words, he uses a main weapon worth about 15 chaos. He runs 78s all day though and almost never dies (as is required when grinding post level 90). People on these forums live in a fantasy about the 'über gear without which I can't do maps yo', and it's just that: a fantasy.

/deaths
Come to Nemesis and do some 78 maps with your 200 dps 1 hander and your "build diversity", and you'll see why "almost never dies" doesn't cut it.

This isn't one of those I play HC so I'm better than you, it's just that we are playing completely different games, and you can't assume that everyone just runs around with shit gear blindfolded and it's okay.

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nGio escreveu:

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Spy_Lord escreveu:

To the guy above: it is clear that you just haven't experienced/tried high level maps with different builds yourself.

I run 76/77/78 maps only nowadays, often with top 50 ladder players. The build diversity is profound. I literally cannot think of a time when two identical builds have been in one of my parties. Even builds that appear the same are often radically different: melee marauders/duellists I run with have such different equipment and passive node priorities that they are essentially totally different builds.

It's also notable how bad the gear of some of these guys are. A level 92 I run with uses a 230pdps one hander - in other words, he uses a main weapon worth about 15 chaos. He runs 78s all day though and almost never dies (as is required when grinding post level 90). People on these forums live in a fantasy about the 'über gear without which I can't do maps yo', and it's just that: a fantasy.

/deaths
Come to Nemesis and do some 78 maps with your 200 dps 1 hander and your "build diversity", and you'll see why "almost never dies" doesn't cut it.

This isn't one of those I play HC so I'm better than you, it's just that we are playing completely different games, and you can't assume that everyone just runs around with shit gear blindfolded and it's okay.

There's a post from Mark where he basically says SC is about build diversity while HC is about surviving and therefore in HC build diversity has to suffer. He's also okay with it.

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Spy_Lord escreveu:

To the guy above: it is clear that you just haven't experienced/tried high level maps with different builds yourself.

I run 76/77/78 maps only nowadays, often with top 50 ladder players. The build diversity is profound. I literally cannot think of a time when two identical builds have been in one of my parties. Even builds that appear the same are often radically different: melee marauders/duelists I run with have such different equipment and passive node priorities that they are essentially totally different builds.

It's also notable how bad the gear of some of these guys are. A level 92 I run with uses a 230pdps one hander - in other words, he uses a main weapon worth about 15 chaos. He runs 78s all day though and almost never dies (as is required when grinding post level 90). People on these forums live in a fantasy about the 'über gear without which I can't do maps yo', and it's just that: a fantasy.

 Over the last year what's your average time played each day? Are you a hardcore elitist that can pretty much faceroll most content? Since you have a level 92 character you must be playing 30+ hours a week and love the grind, grind, grind of PoE and that's great that you have that much time to play each day. Most PoE players are not independently wealthy and/or have a full real life and only get in about less than 25 hours a week.

 We wouldn't need to have the best gear if the endgame was playable without them. I'm sure the uber gear is great and makes the 76-78 maps much easier to play but for the time limited and therefore currency starving average PoE player either getting in enough time to farm currency or being a commodity trader and not playing the game are undesired features of an otherwise great arpg. I'm not saying GGG should drastically reduce time requirements but right now they have missed the goldilocks zone for extreme playing fun for many. At level 92 it's obvious you love the daily grind. To each their own. There is a way to satisfy both player camps but to date GGG has made no mention of permanent league expansion.

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CharanJaydemyr escreveu:

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GrammerPolise escreveu:

PS why are you falling for nGio's trolling? Did you forget how to use post history or something?

Sorry about the multi-posting -- I am lazy there, rather than simply editing the first post with more quotes as I work my way through the thread. That said, there's probably some slight psychological impact when you do it in two-three separate, rapid-fire posts.

(Edit: and if you think that this is the only reason I have the most posts...really? :) )

As for the trolling, this fits perfectly with what I've been saying re: hardcore elitism mentality. nGio serves my purpose well. I'm not 'falling' for their trolling; I'm using what they are (unless you think they're lying/faking it? I don't) to illustrate what's wrong with this community as regards the segregation and the aforementioned 'pressure' Chris brought up.

I feel no such pressure because I'm awesome and fuck anyone who disagrees, but I imagine quite a few players, especially those that watch no-lifer streams, feel like they're 'inadequate' if they can't play hardcore mode.

Which is, quite honestly, a ridiculous way to feel/think. Chris would be the first to agree with me there.

and i would be the second

The whole "mehh I play HC you play SC noob" argument is so invalid and so just...stupid

Seeing how the dev's here keep pushing for a party oriented game, meaning huge FPS drops and not to mention the already known desync whether you're in a party or not comes into play, the fuck is the point of me going HC?

It might mean you have a better computer, congrats. Also it probably means you have a lot more time on your hands to play. Not to mention you probably have an everyday map team that you group with (more party play) and I'm sure that you spend a good amount of time trading.

Yeah, the way the game is currently constructed..try playing hardcore solo, without trading. It just ain't happening. You could do it at a fucking pace of molasses, sure, but where's the "fun" in that?

Half of the people here who play hardcore build extremely tanky with minimum DPS. Meaning you take things slow and kill slow. Fuck that. I'd rather kill fast, and at fast speeds. I wouldn't even mind doing every single build/char I have in a hardcore league, but anything FAST in path of exile, means extreme DESYNC so I'd say no thanks.

Now stop this silly argument that someone who plays HC in this game is more skilled then someone who doesn't. So fucking absurd.

Hardcore is not superior to softcore nor the other way around.

They both however offer different gameplay rulesets that encourage a different mindset and playstyles to play and neither league relate well to each other because of these differences.Which is why I thought it a good idea in the past (and still do) that GGG made a hardcore section on the forums.

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Sinnesteuer escreveu:

I imagine that the bulk of the posters that have issues are also unwilling to play in parties, for whatever reason(s). The most legitimate of these reasons is that you are not a "real" PoE player unless you are solo facerolling top end maps with soul crushing mods on them.

 I have no issue playing in parties but my playing time is so irratic that I can't commit to a specific time and days each week. I am a partner in a wireless Internet business and as a small businesss man keeping the wireless communication network running smoothly for all our customers is pretty much an on call 7 day a week requirement. By running my own ISP that means I have a great Internet connection and my ping time to the Dallas US PoE servers is under 50 ms, but when I get to play PoE is pretty hit and miss every week. So committing to a league or group that plays at specific times on specific days of the week is not possible so I pretty much play solo most of the time. I did get my 2 best friends to play as a trio last summer in Anarchy League but they haven't played with me since that league ended.

 So if there is a case to be made about Standard (and all the scrubcore BS talk) verses the hardcore leagues, playability, replayability, and the whole reason to replay to try a different build all revolves around whether a specific build is viable (or at least we strongly think is will be viable) for Merciless and endgame maps. Once we get well beyond the newbie stage and our throw away first dozen or so builds as we learn the do's and don'ts of PoE, the emphasis is on making a build to survive in the high levels. Obviously, HC forces us into defensive builds and Standard gives us more latitude to try out some theory crafting builds, but beyond that it's all about making a survivable build. With all the possible passive tree combinations plus gear that means there are millions of combos available. But if GGG sets the difficulty bar to an extreme height it takes away millions of builds since they won't survive at high levels. Dieing too frequently and losing XP is the quickest way to get pissed and stop playing. On the opposite extreme facerolling all the mobs and bosses will quickly bore us out and we'll stop playing too. Right now GGG is toward the high end of difficulty (as viewed by a way less than hardcore middle age man) and that's the way the devs like to play their arpg.

 GGG should always be mindfull that millions (at least I hope there are millions as I want PoE to be a huge success and I want to see Act X before GGG quits work on PoE) of arpg players are not as hardcore as them or the many avid posters in these forums. I speak for those that are passionate PoE fans but for the very steep mountain can't climb to the summit and view Wraeclast from the level 100 peak.

Note: ok, I'm stepping down from my soap box for now.

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Temper escreveu:

Hardcore is not superior to softcore nor the other way around.

They both however offer different gameplay rulesets that encourage a different mindset and playstyles to play and neither league relate well to each other because of these differences.Which is why I thought it a good idea in the past (and still do) that GGG made a hardcore section on the forums.

I do agree about that. However, I also think it is unfair to assume that everyone on a league shares a mindset. Simply because someone might not play exclusively on a hardcore league, doesn't mean they just make crazy DPS builds with low survivability. For example, I'd probably play mostly on hardcore leagues, except my friends play on softcore leagues. Therefore I mostly play on softcore leagues with a more hardcore style mindset.
Anyway, I think we are getting off topic.

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Hell_Bovine escreveu:

I would say a single piece of endgame gear (bringer of rain) in PoE takes longer to get than a full set of hammerdin gear on USWest ladder... Including enigma, shako, hoto, zakarum, etc etc

It amazes me that people still think BoR is a rare drop.