A cornerstone of ARPGs is replay value

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CliveHowlitzer escreveu:

This is such a silly argument the two of you are having. Especially since he called me casual also and I've been playing since closed beta and have well over a thousand hours in the game.
I thought the point of this thread was to talk about replay value in ARPGs rather than debating what exactly makes a person 'hardcore'. The most pointless title in the history of video games.

There are a few people on this forums that I would not call a casual under any rights. One of them is you. If your willing to inject over 1k dollars into a game, that deserves you the right to be called hardcore. As far as I'm concerned, we are filthy casuals compared to you.

I made my point some time ago. This game has many great options to keeps its replayabilty high.

Races
New Leagues
New skills
New Uniques
etc...

If you dont think there is replayability in these, then you can get the fuck out of my face.

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Zalm escreveu:

I made my point some time ago. This game has many great options to keeps its replayabilty high.

Races
New Leagues
New skills
New Uniques
etc...

If you dont think there is replayability in these, then you can get the fuck out of my face.

Way to stick it to anyone who has a different opinion than you. Hitler would be proud.

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CliveHowlitzer escreveu:

I think people need to take off the rose tinted glasses when it comes to Diablo 2. It was a good game, sure, but I think people are giving it way too much credit. PoE isn't perfect but neither was Diablo 2.
If PoE has a major issue, it is that GGG are trying to artificially create things that happened organically in Diablo 2.

It's easy to dismiss it as an apples vs. oranges argument, but there's a key similarity between both games which entails how characters behave:

Both games have you using just a few skills actively per build. This is unlike many MMO's which give you a plethora of skills and the ability to easily respec into a different build. This works in an MMO environment which focuses on the character as the player's identification and does not have significant gear-variance for builds. In a game where just a few skills will ever get used by a single character, it makes perfect sense from a fun standpoint to have reasonably fast build completion times, so players re-roll into a build that uses different skills after completing their project.

In other words:

1. PoE has tons of interesting builds.

2. Gameplay-wise, each build uses just a few skills.

So it makes sense to encourage playing with all the different skills, instead of the same few skills over and over. A lengthy end-game does the opposite.

But players aren't re-rolling. This is because:

1. Their build isn't complete, and they know how time-consuming it is to complete another build. Can be fixed by hastening map progression, high level gem progression, and making 5/6-links less volatile to reach self-found.

2. They don't want to go through the same early-game content again, since they do it frequently while racing anyway. Can be fixed by letting race characters get transferred into temp leagues.

3. They don't want to go through the story again 3 times in a row, maps are more interesting. Can be fixed by making pre-map gameplay more dynamic. See Charan's mid-game map idea.

So to sum it all up, people aren't just comparing D2 to PoE due to nostalgia. There are very valid reasons for the comparison.

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Zalm escreveu:

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CliveHowlitzer escreveu:

This is such a silly argument the two of you are having. Especially since he called me casual also and I've been playing since closed beta and have well over a thousand hours in the game.
I thought the point of this thread was to talk about replay value in ARPGs rather than debating what exactly makes a person 'hardcore'. The most pointless title in the history of video games.

There are a few people on this forums that I would not call a casual under any rights. One of them is you. If your willing to inject over 1k dollars into a game, that deserves you the right to be called hardcore. As far as I'm concerned, we are filthy casuals compared to you.

I made my point some time ago. This game has many great options to keeps its replayabilty high.

Races
New Leagues
New skills
New Uniques
etc...

If you dont think there is replayability in these, then you can get the fuck out of my face.

There is a lot more replay than I felt Diablo 2 had. However I still feel the game has some serious issues regarding replay and part of the problem is that the difficulty curve of the game is totally out of whack. The entire game is a snorefest until very late in your characters career. It makes it kind of dull. It'd be nice if there were more options available for leveling. Applying random map mods to areas, a low level mapping system, anything so I am not running through the same zones for the ten billionth time just so I can get a new build going.
I definitely think PoE has a lot of replay. I've put a shit load of hours into it and yet here I am. There are others who have put in much MUCH more than I have. However, I still think it could be better. While I can't speak for everyone, part of the reason we gnash our teeth and foam at the mouth on the forums; it is because we really like PoE and we want it to be even better than it is.
We could sit here and pat GGG on the back all the time, but they know what they've done right. We are here to remind them what could be better, hopefully, in a constructive manner.

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nGio escreveu:

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Zalm escreveu:

I made my point some time ago. This game has many great options to keeps its replayabilty high.

Races
New Leagues
New skills
New Uniques
etc...

If you dont think there is replayability in these, then you can get the fuck out of my face.

Way to stick it to anyone who has a different opinion than you. Hitler would be proud.

Well I'm sorry your definition is end game. I was talking about replayability being the....get this...ability to replay the game over again. Which new leagues, races and new skills/uniques (thus making new builds available) allows.

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Novalisk escreveu:

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CliveHowlitzer escreveu:

I think people need to take off the rose tinted glasses when it comes to Diablo 2. It was a good game, sure, but I think people are giving it way too much credit. PoE isn't perfect but neither was Diablo 2.
If PoE has a major issue, it is that GGG are trying to artificially create things that happened organically in Diablo 2.

It's easy to dismiss it as an apples vs. oranges argument, but there's a key similarity between both games which entails how characters behave:

Both games had you using just a few skills actively per build. This is unlike many MMO's which give you a plethora of skills and the ability to easily respec into a different build. This works in an MMO environment which focuses on the character as the player's identification and does not have significant gear-variance for builds. In a game where just a few skills will ever get used by a single character, it makes perfect sense from a fun standpoint to have reasonably fast build completion times, so players re-roll into a build that uses different skills after completing their project.

In other words:

1. PoE has tons of interesting builds.

2. Gameplay-wise, each build uses just a few skills.

So it makes sense to encourage playing with all the different skills, instead of the same few skills over and over. A lengthy end-game does the opposite.

But players aren't re-rolling. This is because:

1. Their build isn't complete, and they know how time-consuming it is to complete another build. Can be fixed by hastening map progression, high level gem progression, and making 5/6-links less volatile to reach self-found.

2. They don't want to go through the same early-game content again, since they do it frequently while racing anyway. Can be fixed by letting race characters get transferred into temp leagues.

3. They don't want to go through the story again 3 times in a row, maps are more interesting. Can be fixed by making pre-map gameplay more dynamic. See Charan's mid-game map idea.

So to sum it all up, people aren't just comparing D2 to PoE due to nostalgia. There are very valid reasons for the comparison.

Yeah I think I came off the wrong way. I actually agree with you. I think in general, rerolling in PoE is way more of a nightmare than it needs to be. I don't think being able to PL to high level faster is the solution either. I think making early levels actually interesting is the way to go.
At the moment, they are not, not at all. Perhaps the first couple times on a new league, after that, it is just...Zzzzz.

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Zanixx escreveu:

It sounds like you've been unlucky then by the looks of things. I think my boots were replaced at 78 or something (started using them at 35-40ish) but thats ok... they still did their job. Plus, I always like movement speed so turned down a few which would have been stat-upgrades.

Maybe you've been mega unlucky crafting too... thats how I often get my upgrades.

For me: I level to docks merci... farm it till 73ish? Then I farm Piety / Catacombs (if dps is high enough)... then start maps at around 76-77ish... easy!

Actually I consider myself pretty lucky.
I think my gear is great compared to other SFs.

I've been doing maps since lvl 75, gone back to farm Dominus, back to maps... sometimes something usable drops, just not that great and most of the times not usable with my build.

You'll say, well, then make a new char to use that gear!
Guess what, I tried.
I stopped midway through cruel because I cannot stand the boring process of releveling just to find myseld at lvl 70 with 1 usable (not great, just usable) piece of gear and all the other crap gear I picked in the meantime that needs upgrading.

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desrocchi escreveu:

I stopped midway through cruel because I cannot stand the boring process of releveling just to find myseld at lvl 70 with 1 usable (not great, just usable) piece of gear and all the other crap gear I picked in the meantime that needs upgrading.

This is what mostly kills the replay value. The vast boredom of re-leveling back to 70-80. Going through the same crap three times is an archaic thing. GGG doens't need to stick to ideas designed in late 90'

And ofc, if you dont find any interesting loot, you have no reason to rerol anyway.

Seems wrong to call anyone who puts a lot into a game a casual.There's no reason why both types of players can't be seen as hardcore.Hardcore to me = dedication to the game.Whether you theorycraft many builds or min max just a few it's still putting a lot of thought into the game.Casual strikes me as someone who plays little and only learns the basics,plays ready made builds etc.Personally I'd have 3 categories casual,gamer and hardcore.

As to replayability,I've been playing since the start of closed beta so its worked for me.It's possible the replayability come in the form of people coming and going but sustaining a decent population of players.The 10 years quoted does not necessarily mean keeping individuals playing for 10 years but keeping a population entertained.

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CliveHowlitzer escreveu:

Yeah I think I came off the wrong way. I actually agree with you. I think in general, rerolling in PoE is way more of a nightmare than it needs to be. I don't think being able to PL to high level faster is the solution either. I think making early levels actually interesting is the way to go.
At the moment, they are not, not at all. Perhaps the first couple times on a new league, after that, it is just...Zzzzz.

I wanted to address the "make leveling interesting" part.

First, I do not find it very difficult nor time consuming to put together enough gear to keep in the stash in order to gear out alts to ease their leveling. Most of the "trash uniques" that so many complain about are awesome twink items and can really cover for a lot of deficiencies in the early life of a toon.

So, gearing new toons for leveling is not that difficult. A few hours farming Cruel Merveil should net you a great collection of gear for this, farming you will never *have* to do again, as you can will keep that gear in the stash when not actively being used by a toon you are running up.

I'm pretty sure that most players with a few alts will agree with what I have already posted here. The issue comes with making leveling "interesting" while you are basically overgeared for the content you will be facing.

I think that the mistake far too many players make in alt leveling is that the bulk of them ALWAYS choose the "path of least resistance" and just slap on the biggest 2h they can use and then Spectral Throw or Leap Slam or Double Strike to lvl 60. That is the mistake. I mean, why even roll up an alt if you aren't planning on using alternate game play/skill choices/passive investment during the entire life of the alt?

I have not used Spectral Throw on any one of my toons for longer than it took to reach the level requirement(s) for the skills that I intended to use at "end game".

Note: this post is not aimed at Clive, I am just quoting his post as an entry to make my point. That point, ultimately, is that our perceptions of things as players and how we choose to react to those perceptions is really what is at the heart of so many player complaints. Unfortunately, I cannot offer any suggestions on how to address those perceptions.