PoE --> Forum Gold

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wiggin escreveu:

I already said it. Pay to win by definition requires soemone to pay for ingame advantage which is exactly what you are doing when PAYING for someone elses work.

Yea, but it isn't an advantage, it's the same weapons as everybody else can find. You're not correct, sry mate.

The thing is, this doesn't have an impact on the in game economy, it just makes an exchange between two people. The one is interested in IRL money, and the other in items. This isn't pay 2 win, this is business as usual.

Pay 2 win would have an impact as ONLY the rich people would be great, that isn't the case with a system like D2JSP has. As I said a while back, I builded up a great fortune in D2jsp without spending real money, and it didn't actually take that long.

I believe I am correct really.
If there is some outside currency (be it real money or forum currency or beer caps) which let you buy ingame items it means you are able to get that currency and then simply pay to win.
The stuff you are buying may come from some guy who is quitting the game or someone who already played (or paid!) enough to grind those items extremely easily - he will be able to supply market with good gear because there will be demand and a way to pay for it. Without the outside currency the people are not able to buy it because they have to get the ingame currency first. That is how economy regulates itself, removing this regulation can't be any good.
Basically it makes it possible to get good gear without playing the game, you simply pay for that gear instead. I understand all the arguments you said and they are quite similar to those that people who support real money p2w economy model use. (If I wasn't working 8 hours a day, I could play the game and grind the gear. But I work so I buy the gear with the money I made instead.)

Seriously pay 2 win makes absolutely no sense in a ARPG, unless GGG sells items, without letting people work for them.

So what if I stop playing the game, and I give all my gear to my best friend? Is that then "Gifts 2 win"? What if I tell him, that I don't really wanna give it away, because I never know if I'll start again, and he offers me money, and I accept? Is that pay 2 win? I say it's my choice which of them I choose, neither of them would have any kind of impact on other gamers.

Basically your argument is flawed. In a game like this we play for hours for our gear, and whether we choose to sell it for real money or not should be our own decision.

And again: Pay 2 win games doesn't offer you a solution to win the game without spending money, you'll HAVE to spend money to win. Which isn't the case when selling items you found yourself.

Actually no, I played some p2w mmos and it is an option and another whole economy that makes it possible to be abused without spending a dime to make a fortune, exactly what you said about d2jsp. It is an economy problem and huge troublemaker. So no, p2w doesn't mean you have to spend money. If you have to spend money it is p2p.

I'm not gonna argue about what pay to win is anymore, though, for me it was alway a term representing certain mechanics when you could pay for ingame goods with some outside currency, usually real money. For you, however, it means something else. I accept it. It's just a name, who cares.
Even if we remove that p2w stamp from the forum gold idea, all the troubles I described are still present and the economy can be seriously damaged by it.

About gifts - they require some serious motivation and since there are no taxes in the game, gifts are not going to affect game economy.

I also don't get why should it be your decision to sell things for real money. You play the game GGG made and are having fun with it. That's what GGG is selling. Fun. You can choose to do that for free, too. But if there is the forum gold or real money economy, it will allow people to spend money on gear. If there wasn't this way to spend the money on it, they could only spend them on microtransactions. I think GGG isn't going to implement this, it wouldn't be smart decision, not to mention they would break their promise. (But I have seen other companies break their promises about p2w, so...)

Edit: I read the FAQ and one more thing occurred to me. Two players start playing PoE - John and Richard. John decided to go completely for free and play the game without the forum gold thing. Richard, however decides to get some forum credit and use it at start of the game. Both are in a need of good weapon but can't find any. So they decide to buy one from other players. The price is two alchemy orbs. Richard simply buys the alchemy orbs with forum gold. John has to grind for them.
Now you can hopefully see why is even this 'pay to win' (how should I call it?).

That economy is already existing on D2jsp, what are you even arguing for? - It doesn't matter what GGG does to prevent that kind of trading, a lot of people are already using d2jsp. That means a lot of PoE economy will be going through d2jsp.

That's why I ask, will GGG earn money or will they let the owner of d2jsp earn them? If they don't that's fine, people just keeps using d2jsp, not everyone, but many.

I'm not arguing for anything, I'm just pointing out why is it not good thing for games to have this and why can some people see it as pay to win. Also why could this be illegal and people banned for using that. Also PoE has this no-gold system for a reason.

Hello all, Thread Starter here.

I've read through everyone's posts and some really interesting points are being made by lots of people.

Here are a few important issues that I saw:

1. It is important that forum gold not be associated with money in any way. (pay2win) Stated this in the original post.

A. Suggested forum gold distribution methods:
i. For playing in league events you win small amounts.
ii. top finishers in league events win bigger amounts.
iii. forum posts that get uprated as "very useful/helpful" "earn" very very small amounts per upvote, but potentially decent amounts from lots of upvotes.
iv. and of course trade from other players
v. for extremely bad behavior on the forums you can actually lose forum gold...this gives players something to lose....and that will greatly encourage people to behave better.
vi. A refer a friend program. Bring a friend to PoE and you each get a really small amount of Forum Gold.
vii. You get the idea. This system could be implemented and regulated in some pretty cool ways.

Just please don't do NOT associate forum gold with money in any way...it will cause mass outrage.

2. Forum Gold would not give short league players any advantages that they cannot already get anyway.

3. This would not greatly shift the balance of the HC death penalty.

Now for some details:

1. If forum gold can be purchased it will be used to purchase items from players in game. This means players can literally buy power. I understand that some feel buying power is ok, but that is a debate that should take place in a seperate thread.

As long as GGG says we aren't selling power, they really have to avoid a situation like selling forum gold because people will use it to buy items from other players. If GGG goes along with it then it hurts their reputation. Granted players will always be able to buy power, but if it is from other sources than GGG, GGG's reputation remains in good standing....and reputation is very important.

2. Simply disable forum gold trading for short duration league items. I.E. nothing in a short duratio league can be traded for forum gold.

At that point the only way forum gold could be traded for short duration league items is if people trade based on trust. I.E. I'll give you the gold, and trust you will give me the item I want.

But that doesn't change anything. Right now if I have 20 exalted orbs and I'm in a 2 week race and I see someone trading an exalted orb I can be like, "Hey I'll give you 5 regular league exalted orbs and then trust you to give me that short duration exalted orb."

In other words the trust method exists already between leagues...and people could trade up to their hearts content. Nothing to stop that.

The cool part about the forum gold system is, it could be disabled for short duration league trading, actually sending the message that hey we don't want you to do that.

Not much but at least it is a clear message.

3. As for the death penalty circumvention, again all they have to do is disable forum gold trading between leagues.

"Well people could still trade between leagues on trust."

Think about it....you already know the answer to this one....they already can! That is right. If I want to give you 10 exalted orbs on trust from default and get 5 from hc....that is a process already here.

This changes nothing other than adding a fun new option that can help encourage the community to be positive, make players feel good by potentially getting more rewards for doing good things or being good players.

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wiggin escreveu:

I'm not arguing for anything, I'm just pointing out why is it not good thing for games to have this and why can some people see it as pay to win. Also why could this be illegal and people banned for using that. Also PoE has this no-gold system for a reason.

This is how it works:

I creates a thread "SELLING STARKS GEM NEED FG"

People post their offers: "50 FG"

I accept and PM the guy.

I have 10 forum posts on D2jsp and he has 10000, so I have to give him the gem before he transfers the FG (which is where there is a possibility for scamming). We join each others game, I give him my gem, and he transfers my 50 FG after a few minutes.

How is GGG going to fight that?

And let me state, that I would also prefer a world without D2jsp and people using real money, but it is utopia, sadly.

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wiggin escreveu:

I'm not arguing for anything, I'm just pointing out why is it not good thing for games to have this and why can some people see it as pay to win. Also why could this be illegal and people banned for using that. Also PoE has this no-gold system for a reason.

GGG doesn't have gold because it is too easy to bot, and actually makes games feel more grindy since the whole goal of things tends to shift to the accumulation of gold. And gold is generally gathered slowly relative to the thing you want to buy...so it just makes everything feel slow and grindy...and bots...you cannot say enough about bots.


You cannot directly farm forum gold. End o' story. That is why Jsp gold has a more solid currency value than 99% of games out there.


It is also much more easily regulated than in game gold.


In other words, yes, GGG doesn't have in game gold for a reason. Those reasons do not apply to forum gold.

And forum gold would greatly add functionality to things to help promote the notion of "hey we really don't need in game gold"

Not that we need in game gold either way, we don't, but at least there would be a gold system around for those who feel more comfortable with that...without actually hurting the core concepts GGG wants to preserve without having any in game gold.

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TEBird escreveu:

You cannot directly farm forum gold. End o' story. That is why Jsp gold has a more solid currency value than 99% of games out there.

Sorry, I might be misunderstanding. You said earlier, that FG shouldn't by any means be associated with real money - you do know, that you can buy FG on jsp?