I always hear namelocking is 'bad' in PoE. Is it also 'bad' in other ARPGs ?

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Entropic_Fire escreveu:

I just explained it to you, missing because you failed to name lock makes single target melee weaker. Ranged builds by and large don't have to deal with that drawback, hence this becoming a discussion in the first place.

What do you mean that people want namelock to be treated like an aoe mechanic? What people want is a change to what happens when you attack with a single target skill without namelocking, I thought I had explained that in a previous post. Almost every post in this thread seems to miss that point, e.g.:

so people dont like namelock because they can miss. and they dont like missing because its comparatively weaker than skills without namelock that cant miss often.
therefore it should be fixed by foolproofing targeting and never missing.

did I get that correctly ?
if so, people dont really not like the mechanic, they just dont like that its weaker, by that logic. so if we give namelock skills 200% more damage, would that outweigh the downsides of namelock ? but Im somewhat skeptical this happens, in reality people still will not like namelock.

missing targets is the *feature* of namelock. autoaim just makes it dumbed down and aoe-like. skills like molten strike, that dont require namelock, dont even require a target to be hit for secondary damage, which is extremely illogical to me.
if you dont have to aim at shit, might as well make it an aoe skill and call it a day. if people dont want to aim, they can just say so.

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raics escreveu:

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grepman escreveu:

I see absolutely, positively nothing inherently wrong with missing, and missing a lot if you mis-aim on skills that involve targeting and not 'point to general direction, press x, win'. yes, I understand that compared to aoe that cant really miss, this is less efficient. not my point. but- efficiency can be an answer. no one has mentioned it though.

Why would your character take into account your accuracy when you use single target skills and not for AoE skills? Don't be a dude, this isn't an FPS game.

what does a fps have to do with anything ? is fps the only genre where you want a cursor placed on x, and that x is dynamic ?

whats the point of namelock (locking on a name) if one wants to only point in 'general direction' and autohit ?

again, might as well make it an aoe skill with no aiming. because - fuck aiming.

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grepman escreveu:

if so, people dont really not like the mechanic, they just dont like that its weaker, by that logic. so if we give namelock skills 200% more damage, would that outweigh the downsides of namelock ? but Im somewhat skeptical this happens, in reality people still will not like namelock.

It won't, the sheer annoyance of trying to click on something and failing is hard to overcome. Besides, it would be ridiculous for boss fights if you can fit two high link setups.

The problem there is you can keep up with namelocking a boss, they're big and the fight doesn't last long. However keeping up the focus over half an hour is murder, believe it or not, I've actually tried using splash Dual Strike without ms in higher maps recently and wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

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grepman escreveu:

whats the point of namelock (locking on a name) if one wants to only point in 'general direction' and autohit ?

again, might as well make it an aoe skill with no aiming. because - fuck aiming.

You probably missed it from a few posts back:

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So, you don't think a trained warrior is capable of swinging his weapon in the general direction of an enemy? You tell him to do it, the interface fails to deliver the message and that's a problem.

This is a point and click game, all actions you make are commands, you don't control anything directly.

This is starting to remind me of the Feedback thread about "anti-fun systems" in PoE.

Higher crowd quantity? Small clickboxes? Fast moving enemies? -> having to aim is difficult -> causes frustration on miss and satisfaction on hit

And for most people, average frustration exceeds average satisfaction?

But for grepman, average satisfaction exceeds average frustration?

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grepman escreveu:

your first point was precision. you want a namelock to behave like aoe skill. this only raises more questions than answers anything.

My first point was that if you target empty space even in the utmost vicinity of a mob, you will not initiate said skill (no matter how you bind it), but instead walk there.

Pray tell, i didnt even say anything about automatically hitting the target. Initiating the skill as if you shift clicked would be alright. With the attack speed as is, and the number of screens you traverse per minute, its just one of the many things that add unneeded awkwardness to the system. That is wasted time because of accidentially walking somewhere, instead of hitting something.

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grepman escreveu:

I dont understand why someone would hate to miss air when they click air

You dont. You dont even start hitting. You take a stroll.

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grepman escreveu:

or miss a moving target in a real-time system with rapidly moving objects. there has been no answer given as to why people dont like missing when they legit missed. the closest 'answer' I got was references to other arpgs. Im still waiting for someone to say 'its an arpg so you shouldnt miss at all'.

So, you say our battle-hardened characters have the spacial awareness of a toddler, and that is totally fine. I wont even begin to go into the "legit misses" because there are none in PoE, unless you shift click empty space a mile away from your target. And your underlying message is that this is somehow equivalent to skill. Something completely out of the control of the player. mhm.

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grepman escreveu:

I see absolutely, positively nothing inherently wrong with missing, and missing a lot if you mis-aim on skills that involve targeting and not 'point to general direction, press x, win'. yes, I understand that compared to aoe that cant really miss, this is less efficient. not my point. but- efficiency can be an answer. no one has mentioned it though.

Yes. We want "press x" to win. Thats exactly what everyone is saying.

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grepman escreveu:

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e. Just answer this one: Why do we need namelock, when every single build that uses a namelocked skill uses a support that autotargets on two thirds of the strikes anyway, worse yet, strikes targets *randomly* in the vicinity?

who said we *need* namelock ? I never did. I asked why people dislike it. if people want to make it into aoe autoaim 'foolproof' bullshit, might as well make all skills autoaim. also, I never said multistrike was a good solution

Yet you defend namelocking as something that you correlate with skill? That wrecks my brain.

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grepman escreveu:

how does mob density influence namelock though ? a single target skill should hit one target, logically, no ? namelock or no namelock.

D2 had a mob density, where you could easily pick out the most threatening target and usually your namelock skills would be vastly superior in damage to aoe skills. That, combined with the pace the game had made namelock skills acceptable.

Poe? Jackhammer. Are you seriously expecting people to retarget every 0.10 seconds?

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raics escreveu:

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grepman escreveu:

if so, people dont really not like the mechanic, they just dont like that its weaker, by that logic. so if we give namelock skills 200% more damage, would that outweigh the downsides of namelock ? but Im somewhat skeptical this happens, in reality people still will not like namelock.

It won't, the sheer annoyance of trying to click on something and failing is hard to overcome. Besides, it would be ridiculous for boss fights if you can fit two high link setups.

The problem there is you can keep up with namelocking a boss, they're big and the fight doesn't last long. However keeping up the focus over half an hour is murder, believe it or not, I've actually tried using splash Dual Strike without ms in higher maps recently and wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

right, so we're getting warmer :) come on people, just say you don't want to aim and that is tiring as opposed just rushing through clicking wherever the fuck on the screen and killing shit.

and lets not pretend skills like molten strike or lighting strike arent inherently 'area' skills, because they are - they attack a spatial area instead of a specific mob.

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So, you don't think a trained warrior is capable of swinging his weapon in the general direction of an enemy? You tell him to do it, the interface fails to deliver the message and that's a problem.

This is a point and click game, all actions you make are commands, you don't control anything directly.

Im not looking for a thematic explanation tho. you misclick shit in dota, you misclick. if I misclick stuff in a rtwp (real time with pause) crpg, I misclick and its not uncommon to hit air (of course I turn all autoaim and ai off - because I dont do that, Im a purist). point and click doesnt mean you dont need to point and click correctly, inherently.

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grepman escreveu:

there has been no answer given as to why people dont like missing when they legit missed. the closest 'answer' I got was references to other arpgs. Im still waiting for someone to say

ho ho hold on. I must be misreading something. You're criticizing reference to other arpgs... but your thread title asks "Is it also 'bad' in other ARPGs?" So that sounds like you're asking for comparison to other ARPGs, and then putting down any comment that compares to other ARPGs.

Probably not what it actually is, but that's what it sounds like.

.

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adghar escreveu:

This is starting to remind me of the Feedback thread about "anti-fun systems" in PoE.

Higher crowd quantity? Small clickboxes? Fast moving enemies? -> having to aim is difficult -> causes frustration on miss and satisfaction on hit

And for most people, average frustration exceeds average satisfaction?

But for grepman, average satisfaction exceeds average frustration?

lets put it this way, I dont understand frustration with things like aiming or ui or routines (especially avoidable ones). in some cases like this one I genuinely try to understand why people are frustrated, in other youre mentioning, I just pointed out how generalizing shit about what 'fun' is, is dumb. part of my definition of 'fun', for example, is rng or elements beyond my control bending me over

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adghar escreveu:

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grepman escreveu:

there has been no answer given as to why people dont like missing when they legit missed. the closest 'answer' I got was references to other arpgs. Im still waiting for someone to say

ho ho hold on. I must be misreading something. You're criticizing reference to other arpgs... but your thread title asks "Is it also 'bad' in other ARPGs?" So that sounds like you're asking for comparison to other ARPGs, and then putting down any comment that compares to other ARPGs.

Probably not what it actually is, but that's what it sounds like.

ive played pretty much all arpgs worth a damn. I didnt criticize references in other arpgs, I asked if people were ok with the systems in other arpgs- and they were. (Im ok with any game system or mechanically clunky concept so I wouldnt know )
we quickly found out why - the aiming system (obviously). now the next question why aiming system is bad in poe - we found out why too - people want autoaim system.

now the next question is why autoaim/area attack on a thing that by definition should attack a target, not a space.